To: ALL Date: 01/04
From: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Time: 1:27 PM
THE NEXT BOOK
Let's start discussing WHERE I'M CALLING FROM by Raymond
Carver around the 15th of January. The February book will be
DANDELION WINE by Bradbury and the March book will be AN
AMERICAN CHILDHOOD by Annie Dillard.
Happy reading,
Sherry
=============== Reply 1 of Note 15 =================
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 01/11
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 12:22 PM
Since I nominated WHERE I'M CALLING FROM, I feel
compelled to give everyone a little nudge here. I sort of
immersed myself in this book, plus two others *about* him
over Christmas vacation and I'm dying to talk to you all
about these stories.
And just to nudge your curiousity a bit, I wanted to
share with you some of these quotes about his writing from
an interview with Donald Justice (from a book called
RAYMOND CARVER: AN ORAL BIOGRAPHY):
***
Justice: He has great human sympathy, which I don't
believe all writers have, and I am of the opinion all
writers should have it. He has it automatically, just
generously from the spirit. Those are the two aspects of
his artistry in particular I admire, especially as
they got together.
Interviewer: Artistry. Could you elaborate?
Justice: His stories are (pause) conscientiously and
idiosyncratically put together. They have a form to them,
and he has a style of his own too that is as far as I can
tell without pretension. It also possesses all sorts of
virtues that I appreciate. It is quite clear, direct, and
fairly subtle. He seems to be concerned with the truth.
All this may seem obvious, but it can't be said of most
writers. The classical virtues exist in his best work.
Justice: ...what I keep returning
to now, and what I talk about to my classes--we always go
over two or three of his stories every term, and always
"Cathedral" because it epitomizes one of the things I
really care about in writing--and that is the discovery of
the mystery in the mundane. He could find the art in
everyday occurences. I read somewhere that early
Christianity had such appeal because it made mystery
democratic. It wasn't filtered down through priests. You
could have mystery in your everyday life. In an amazing
way, Ray did that with his work, in that strange
conjunction between accident and art.
Interviewer: Did you recognize this from the start?
Justice: Yes, especially in stories like "Are You a
Doctor?" and "Put Yourself in My Shoes", those stories. I
liked the Kafkaesque quality in those stories, the way
accidents happen that can determine your fate...You have to
read Ray's stories with the same intensity as you read
poetry.
***
Carver didn't choose "Are You a Doctor? for this
collection, but "Put Yourself in My Shoes" is here.
More on next note>>>>>>>>>>>>>
=============== Reply 2 of Note 15 =================
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 01/11
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 12:22 PM
My initial reaction to this collection was that I liked
the mid-career stories the best, particularly those from
the CATHEDRAL collection, but they may have been because I
was re-reading them. The Oral Biography book also
interviewed a man named Leonard Michaels who taught at the
University of California in Berkeley when Carver was there
and published some of his early stories in a U of Cal
literary magazine, The Occident. The following are some of
the things he says about Carver's earlier and later stories:
***
Interviewer: Did you publish it?
Michaels: Yes. It was his early work and I liked it a lot.
I liked his sense of humor and the way he managed to
suppress a certain element of rationality, so the events in
a story would move forward by virtue of a subconscious
compulsion, as if there were no reality principal. This is
too complicated and I don't like to talk this way. There
was a craziness in his stories that pleased me.
Interviewer: Do you find that note missing in his later
work?
Michaels: No, it's not missing. It's just that his work
becomes deeper, almost as if he begins to feel what he
feels, so the meaning of the stories is *in* the stories,
whereas in the first book the meaning can wait. Do you see
what I mean? The story has trajectory. The meaning can
come along later. It's not involved in the experience of
the story itself....
Interviewer:
Are you saying his early work is more visceral? Purer?
Michaels:
It's more musical. To my ear. More terrifiying.
Terrifying in the Kierkegaardian sense, like life itself.
I don't know (laughs), forget that."
****
At one point in the interview, Michaels makes reference to
"Intimacy" as an example of Carver's later stories, so
maybe he means the last few in WHERE I'M CALLING FROM and I
don't think I like those as much as the others. I do find
that, with re-reads and reflection, I like the early
stories more and more.
However, whatever you do, please don't miss "The Third
Thing That Killed My Father Off", "Fever" "Feathers",
"Cathedral" and "A Small Good Thing." I've been looking
forward to the discussion of all these stories for a year!
Barb
=============== Reply 3 of Note 15 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 01/11
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 9:35 PM
Barb and Sherry,
Am I remembering correctly? Was Robert Altman's film, SHORT
CUTS, based on Carver stories? I just finished the story
about the mother who is trying to escape her son. We can
discuss this later, but I loved the reason why she was
afraid of him. Of course, I thought he was an axe murderer.
Jane in sunny Colorado
=============== Reply 4 of Note 15 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 01/12
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 8:40 AM
Jane: Yes, the Altman film SHORT CUTS was based on Carver
stories--some more loosely than others.
I have a paperback called SHORT CUTS: Selected Stories by
Raymond Carver that was published as a movie tie-in, with a
very brief foreword by Altman about converting the stories
into film. It's short enough that I can post it here, a
little later. (Book's dated 1993; Carver died in 1988.)
The cover art work features a Valentine heart, shattered
like a pane of glass, with a very large housefly perched
near the edge. Pretty apropos of Carver's mood, I think.
>>Dale in Ala.
=============== Reply 5 of Note 15 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 01/12
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 8:47 AM
Jane: By the way, here are the stories Altman chose for
SHORT CUTS...
--Neighbors
--They're Not Your Husband
--Vitamins
--Will You Please Be Quiet, Please?
--So Much Water So Close to Home
--A Small, Good Thing
--Jerry and Molly and Sam
--Collectors
--Tell the Women We're Going
--Lemonade (poem)
My own favorite Carver story is "Why Don't You Dance?" No
matter how many times I read it, it hits me like a ton of
bricks. Not quite reality, not quite fantasy, not quite
magical realism, but a very potent brew of something that
touches our idealized notion of domesticity at its raw core.
Myth? Icon? I haven't gotten my copy of WHERE I'M CALLING
FROM yet so I don't know if it's in there, but if not I hope
somebody will track the story down and help me out.
>>Dale in Ala.
=============== Reply 6 of Note 15 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 01/12
From: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Time: 10:01 AM
Barb,
I was already formulating the opening note in my head (I've
read the first half of the book so far) and I was going to
say that the stories made magic out of ordinary life. The
writing has a simplicity and directness that contrast to the
feeling you get when you finish the story--a feeling of
eeriness or shivers or something I can't quite put my finger
on. Each story could have its own thread, there's such
possibility for discussion.
Sherry, gearing up
=============== Reply 7 of Note 15 =================
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 01/12
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 9:45 PM
Dale, Thanks for posting about SHORT CUTS. I am so proud of
myself for remembering that at my advanced age . As I
wrote that "g", I was thinking that some of our younger
members may think that my age is pretty advanced, but you
young'uns who are close to my age will understand. Jane who
will check Dale's list against the list of stories in our
book
=============== Reply 8 of Note 15 =================
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 01/13
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 8:25 PM
I love Sherry's description of Carver's writing. There's
also a sort of right to the marrow honesty about it as well.
Okay, now I'm worrying that I'm building him up too much
and you'll all be disappointed, like the movies that I read
too much about before I see them.
I wanted to amend my comments about the last stories. I
still had two to go when I wrote that and I loved them
both. Do not miss "Errand". It is very different in
subject matter from the others and involves Chekhov's death
(and a cameo by Tolstoy). And, I also liked "Blackbird
Pie" very much.
I haven't ever seen SHORT CUTS. I'm not sure why. I
guess I just couldn't imagine Carver translated to screen
adequately.
And, one other thing, for those who don't read short
stories often...I try to not read them one right
after the other, particularly if they are all by the same
author. They lose their individual pearl-like quality if I
do. You might want to try reading only two or three at a
sitting. The danger with that approach is that you might
not get through all of them, but, with Carver, I have a
hard time limiting myself anyway. Barb
=============== Reply 9 of Note 15 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 01/13
From: NDKB53A THERESA SIMPSON Time: 10:07 PM
Barb - I agree with the interviewee in your earlier post,
that Carver has "great human sympathy." He is often
compared to Ann Beattie and her ilk, and I guess they do
share a similar spare style, but I think it is this sympathy
which sets him apart from many of the other minimalists. It
just shines forth from his stories. I've probably read
every single Carver story at least twice (not recently,
though) - I very rarely re-read, so this is a strong reco
for any of you who are undecided whether to tackle these
stories. You will be glad you did.
Theresa
=============== Reply 10 of Note 15 =================
To: NDKB53A THERESA SIMPSON Date: 01/14
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 8:29 AM
Theresa: It always rankled me to hear Carver lumped with
Beattie, et al, under the "minimalist" umbrella though I
could never put into words what the difference was. I think
Carver's innate, if beautifully understated, sympathy is
exactly right.
>>Dale in Ala.
=============== Note 25 =================
To: ALL Date: 01/15
From: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Time: 11:21 AM
WHERE I'M CALLING FROM by Raymond Carver
I don't know where to start. I urge all of you to read every
one of these stories. If anyone were to call me and say "I
don't have time for them all, which ones should I read?" I
would stutter and mumble and say, "Ah, gee, I don't know."
The one story that was the most emotional for me was A
SMALL, GOOD THING. I was glad it came at the end of a
section, though. Because if you read this one first, I think
the impact would not have been as great. I read them in
order, since they were in the book sort of chronologically.
I don't think that's necessary, but I'm glad I did.
How are we going to do this? Pick one story apart, then go
on to the next? Or should we have a different thread for
different stories. That way would be rather cumbersome, but
we could have several conversations at once. What do you
say?
Sherry
=============== Reply 1 of Note 25 =================
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 01/15
From: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Time: 8:31 PM
Sherry,
I'm going to pick up my copy at the library tomorrow. Sounds
like a winner.
Ann
=============== Reply 2 of Note 25 =================
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 01/15
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 9:45 PM
Sherry,
I am about half way through the book. I am reading only two
or three stories a day so that I can think about each one.
To start, I think that it would be good to discuss some of
the stories that come at the beginning, since not everyone
is finished. Some of the stories in the middle seem to deal
with marriages breaking up, so we could maybe talk about
those all together. These are just a couple of ideas.
In the first section, the first story that really grabbed me
was "They're not your Husband". It is interesting and
very sad that Earl should care so much about the opinions of
other men. I can see why he would be upset with those first
negative comments that he heard, but I was expecting him to
ask his wife to get a longer or more roomy uniform so that
it wouldn't ride up when she bent over. I would think that
he would be angry with the men who made the rude remarks and
not take it out on his wife. He was embarrassed by the
comments at the beginning, but he certainly did a fine job
of embarrassing himself at the end. Carver gave him his
comeuppance. I did like the circular form of the story with
the beginning and ending both being in the diner. Jane who
would like to discuss the SAN FRAN. story as well
=============== Reply 3 of Note 25 =================
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 01/15
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 11:55 PM
Sherry, my copy of the book should be in at the bookstore
any day now. I'm so looking forward to reading it. I love
short stories, as you know, and Raymond Carver is an
acknowledged master that I've had far to little exposure to.
Ruth, in rainy SC
=============== Reply 4 of Note 25 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 01/16
From: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Time: 9:47 AM
Ruth,
I really, really like these stories. I think you are in for
a treat.
Sherry
=============== Reply 5 of Note 25 =================
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 01/17
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 12:41 PM
I'm going to try hard to stay away from too much
biography of Carver until we've talked more about the
stories. I tend to do that in excess and I wonder
sometimes if it takes away from the writing itself.
However, I recently listened to an interview with Carver
on tape in which I became even more convinced that a bare
bones awareness of his beginnings and his life add a good
background to his writing. Carver was born in Oregon of
*very* working class origins. His father worked in a
sawmill. Carver and his first wife married when they were
19 and 17, respectively, and had two small children
immediately. His family, etc. expected him to get a job in
the sawmill and for his wife to stay home and take care of
the kids. Nobody expected him to go to college. Instead,
he and his wife both worked, went to college, tried to
raise the children and he tried to write in addition to it
all. His stories seem to reflect his beginnings, his
domestic strife and the absolute at the edge existence that
he lived to try to batter away at those goals. In the
interview tape, he described he and his wife as "the
working poor." He said, "I didn't know anything about
upper class Boston society so I didn't write about it, but
I did know about this."
The first story in WHERE I'M CALLING FROM, "Nobody Said
Anything" left me with a sense of it just hanging in the
air when I finished. That happens with me in a lot of
Carver's early writing. I'm not sure I "get it", but it
resonates inside my head and I can't leave it mentally.
Carver also chose this one to read in a tape I listened to
of him reading three stories which makes me think that it
is one that he likes. He said very little to explain
it, just that he had once caught fish like these.
One of the things that keep sticking with me about it is
the portrayal of that adolescent boy. Carver picks up so
many of the fine details that make up male adolescence
(which I live with daily). That "in between" quality of
yearning to be an adult, curiousity about all it entails
and yet being so vulnerable to the conflict between your
parents is right there. He goes out and wages his own war
with nature, catches the fish of his life (though it's
obviously flawed), makes his own foray into adulthood, but
is greeted with total rejection by his parents who are
oblivious to anything but their own war.
Barb
=============== Reply 6 of Note 25 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 01/18
From: BUYS59A BARBARA HILL Time: 3:22 PM
Barbara - I like these stories because they do sort of force
the reader to explain it to his/herself after reading each
one. I liked your interpretation of the first one. Mine
was that this boy escaped from the problems at home for
awhile by getting all caught up in catching this great fish,
but when he showed up at home with this defective, half fish
the escape was over. Nothing had changed. And yes I thought
it was a good portrayal of the boy.
Barb Hill
=============== Reply 7 of Note 25 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 01/19
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 9:51 PM
Barb,
What did Carver die of? I noticed that he was only 49
(Notice the ONLY) when he died. I finished FEVER today and
noticed that the ages of the couple paralleled what you said
about the age he was when he got married. Jane who had
another relapse of bronchitis this weekend
=============== Reply 8 of Note 25 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 01/20
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 7:35 PM
Jane: Here's the capsule bio of Carver in CONTEMPORARY
AUTHORS.
***
CARVER, RAYMOND (1938-1988)
Born May 25, 1938, in Clatskanie, OR; died of lung cancer,
August 2, 1988, in Port Angeles, WA; son of Clevie Raymond
(a laborer) and Ella Beatrice (maiden name, Casey; a
homemaker) Carver; married Maryann Burk (a teacher) June 7,
1957 (divorced, October, 1983); married Tess Gallagher (a
poet), June, 1988; children: Christine LaRae, Vance Lindsay.
Education: Humboldt State College (now California State U.,
Humboldt), A.B., 1963; University of Iowa, MFA, 1966.
Politics: Democrat.
***
At first I was surprised that his heavy drinking wasn't a
cause of his dying so young, but then I seem to recall a
research study showing that smokers who drink heavily are
far more prone to lung cancer than smokers who don't drink.
Hope someone more medically knowledgeable (Anne?) will
correct me if I'm wrong.
>>Dale in Ala.; politics, Yellow Dog Democrat. Is that a
regionalism, or has everybody heard the term?
(I was also amazed to find that someone who died at
roughly my own current age has *22* published volumes to his
credit--true, several of them are chapbooks, but still...
I'd be proud to have been *half* as productive by this
point.
BTW, my friend Dennis Covington studied under both Carver
and John Cheever at Iowa, and says that Carver's hard-won
battle for sobriety was the major inspiration for his own.
I did a Homework Helper search today for Carver, and the
references in books, magazines, radio & TV maxxed out
several times at 150 hits. From a quick scanning of the best
parts, most references were to the term "Carver country,"
which apparently has entered the language. And justly so.)
=============== Reply 9 of Note 25 =================
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 01/20
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 9:14 PM
Dear Dale,
Thanks for the biography. I noticed that Carver's
characters seem prone to drinking, smoking, and in some
cases, smoking dope. The story that I am currently reading
is about a blind man who comes to visit a couple. They sit
down after dinner and smoke some hashish. This surprised me
for some reason. I really enjoyed the story "Feathers"
yesterday. I loved the description of the ugly baby.
"It was just ugly. It had a big red face, pop eyes, a broad
forehead, and these big fat lips. It had no neck to speak
of, and it had three or four chins. Its chins rolled right
up under its ears, and its ears stuck out from its bald
head. Fat hung over its wrists. Its arms and fingers were
fat. Even calling it ugly does it credit."
Now, that is an UGLY baby! In spite of all that, the baby
kindled the mother instinct in Fran. What an interesting
story!
Dale, you mentioned that you were surprised at Carver's
productivity. I would love to have any published work, and
I know that all CR's admire your writing in your works and
on the board.
Jane, wondering what a Yellow Dog Democrat is????
=============== Reply 10 of Note 25 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 01/21
From: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Time: 9:16 AM
Jane, I loved that story too. It was so unusual, especially
the peacock and the baby being pals, with neither of them
being able to get settled down for the night without the
other. I liked that the mother finally letting them "play"
together in end led to the extraordinary feeling of
well-being in the visiting couple. A kind of everyday
paradox, that if you allow people to see that side of you
that is a bit off-the-wall, a bit embarrassing, much good
can come out of it.
Sherry in snowy Milwaukee
=============== Reply 11 of Note 25 =================
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 01/21
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 9:45 PM
Sherry,
That is a good point about showing our "off-the-wall" sides
to others. I know that we have all built barriers to
protect ourselves from being hurt. It is great working with
kids who haven't built really thick walls - yet! CR's seem
to have their little quirks that make them endearing to
other CR's. Are we all uptight in our regular lives? Jane
who is wondering about these things
=============== Reply 12 of Note 25 =================
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 01/23
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 6:56 PM
One of the many interesting things to me about "Feathers"
was that Carver pulls the narrator and his wife into this
odd scene of domesticity where they finally let down their
guards and allow themselves to want that kind of dependence
and love and it was their downfall. As a result of that
night, they have a child of their own and the narrator
seems to be saying that the child ruined their relationship.
From a traditional point of view, that's more a male
reaction to the coming of children, but the wife in this
relationship seems to be equally angry about it ("Goddamn
those people and their ugly baby.")
Jane, thanks for quoting Carver's description of the ugly
baby. That was absolutely classic, I thought. And, the
model of what Olla's teeth had been like displayed
prominently in the front room! It was such a perfect
little microcosm of the kinds of situations that can drive
and sustain a relationship, instead of all the hearts and
flowers sentiments of popular songs.
Everything I've read about Carver says that he was
absolutely fascinated by these little interesting details
that would come up in conversations with others, the
newspaper, etc. Sometimes, it was a phrase that he built a
story around or sometimes a little strange little detail of
life that he heard. I'm sure that he must've heard
somewhere about a peacock kept as a pet and a model of bad
teeth kept on display. And, also this whole story reminds
me of a less extreme Diane Arbus photograph. Does anyone
remember her? She used to do these stark photographs of
people with this frank attitude toward their difference.
She kept popping into my head as I read this.
This is definitely one of my favorite stories in the
book. Barb
=============== Reply 13 of Note 25 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 01/24
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 0:50 AM
I do indeed remember Diane Arbus. And I FINALLY got my copy
of Carver's stories today. Can't wait to delve into them.
Ruth
=============== Reply 14 of Note 25 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 01/24
From: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Time: 9:39 AM
I have a whole book of Arbus photographs. Very eery and
disturbing. I can see the connection with the Carver
stories, but with Arbus, there seems to be more evil lurking
under the beds. Carver can sometimes be eery, but I think
his people are very very human and he likes them, warts and
all. I'm not so sure about Arbus. I sometimes got the
feeling she was making fun of them.
Sherry
=============== Reply 15 of Note 25 =================
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 01/24
From: DNBR75A S THOMSEN Time: 11:12 AM
Sherry, yeah, I agree with you about Arbus; her attitude
toward the people whose pictures she took is hard for me to
figure out. I haven't read "Feathers" in a couple of years,
but it is one of my favorites. I loved the peacocks in the
trees. I seem to remember a teacher of mine saying that what
Carver often wrote about was possibility. In a number of his
stories there's often a window of possibility; of course,
many times it shuts, too, as in "Feathers."
To me, Arbus is much more aggressive than Carver, who
did, as you say, seem to care for the people he's writing
about. Meanwhile, I'll try to find his poem "Gravy" and post
it. It's super. ---Susan
=============== Reply 16 of Note 25 =================
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 01/24
From: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Time: 11:53 AM
Barb,
I'm finally getting into these stories too. I really liked
your interpretation of the first one. That kid was more or
less a casualty of the parents' battles with each other,
wasn't he? I didn't like him much until that final scene,
and then my heart went out to him.
I'm skipping around a bit, but so far my favorite is
"They're Not Your Husband" because it deals in such a
cutting way with a very common human failing -- putting too
much value on what others think about physical appearances.
Hopefully, none of us is *quite* as insensitive as Earl
on this score, who was certainly no prize himself.
Carver reminds me a bit of Larry Brown, probably because of
his spare style and the everyday type of characters he deals
with. So far, I cetainly haven't encountered any brooding
intellectuals.
Ann
=============== Reply 17 of Note 25 =================
To: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Date: 01/24
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 6:10 PM
I agree with all of you about the Diane Arbus/Carver
comparison. He does seem to have far more compassion for
his characters. I think what made me think of her, in this
story particularly, are the little events and people that
he chooses.
Another quality about him that is irresistable to me is
his cut to the bone honesty. I get the feeling that he
tried to look at his own and other's humanity with no gauze
over the camera, if you know what I mean. For instance,
Earl in "They're Not Your Husband" is expressing
some pretty common human feelings, but very few people are
telling others about them. The fact that he acted on them
so aggressively is also uncommon, I hope. I got the
feeling in lots of his stories that he was looking at
himself without aid of filters as much as he was looking at
others.
=============== Reply 18 of Note 25 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 01/25
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 1:08 PM
Just started this book yesterday. I'm struck by how short
most of these stories are. Just moments, really. It's in
his choice of WHAT moments to tell about that Carver's
genius shows, I think.
Ruth
=============== Reply 19 of Note 25 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 01/25
From: DNBR75A S THOMSEN Time: 3:54 PM
Ruth, that's such a good point Carver's choosing exactly
which moment in a life to convey. It is genius, isn't it?
Ann, this morning I read "They're Not Your Husband," after
you mentioned it earlier. (I am reading piece-meal between
hits of too much CNN.) It's a powerful story. It seems like
all of Earl's doubts about himself are projected into his
concern with his wife's weight. He is humiliated, I think,
that she is working in such a job at all. Earl, who is
unemployed, has lost his center of gravity, and perhaps
that's why the comments of the guys in the diner get to him
so much. And his digust with himself slowly poisons the
household, too--his wife takes to staying in bed, etc. Sad>
story & so well-written.
Carver's stories seem particularly apt right now. Perhaps
because I feel so dispirited about all the recent news from
Washington. Many of the people in the stories I've read so
far, such as the woman in "The Student's Wife," are really
depressed.
Susan
=============== Reply 20 of Note 25 =================
To: DNBR75A S THOMSEN Date: 01/26
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 5:38 PM
Susan,
Excellent reading of "They're Not Your Husband." I don't
think that I thought enough about that story, but
your take on it is absolutely on target. Some of Carver's
genius is his focused description of what couples do to
each other as they try to struggle through a not so easy
life.
And, Ruth, that's also a perfect description of what
Carver does, picking exactly the right moments...like
cutting just the right bits of film from the whole reel.
Barb
=============== Reply 21 of Note 25 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 01/26
From: DNBR75A S THOMSEN Time: 6:00 PM
Barb, one of the amazing things about Carver's stories to me
is his use of details, the specifics of a situation, and, of
course, these specifics create a big picture without Carver
having to announce one thing! I will try to read some more
of the stories soon. I read CATHEDRAL three years ago &
enjoyed it; the details of several of the stories, such as
the one with the peacocks, have stuck with me.
I also liked the story where the boy's father ends up
getting into a fight with another kid's father.
Susan
=============== Reply 22 of Note 25 =================
To: DNBR75A S THOMSEN Date: 01/26
From: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Time: 8:15 PM
New favorite -- "Distance", the story the father tells his
daughter about the early days of his teenage marriage. I got
married when I was much older, but I remember those days
when my first son got sick and I panicked. This was really a
sweet story, very different in tone from the other ones I
have read so far. Of course, it was bittersweet, but then
that may be as close as Carver comes to "happy."
Any comments on "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love"
or "The Third Thing That Killed My Father Off"? I liked both
of these, but what really impresses me about Carver is the
overwhelming feeling of sadness that comes through in his
stories. No wonder he drank.
Ann
=============== Reply 23 of Note 25 =================
To: DNBR75A S THOMSEN Date: 01/27
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 12:35 PM
Susan, Carver's use of details, and how most of his stories
are not "stories" in the sense of a plot with a beginning,
middle and end, but just snips or glimpses, reminds me of
what my poetry teacher is always urging us to do--focus on
what he calls the "image/moment". Use details to give a
picture of a momemnt. I couldn't think of a better way to
describe what Carver is doing. It enchants me. It isn't
often that I come away from either an art gallery or a book
saying to myself, "I want to do that." Carver makes me want
to do that. And he makes it look easy enough that it gives
me hope. Of course, it ain't easy, but making it look easy
is a sign of a true master.
Ruth, in warm sunny California, where the hills are this
incredible green
=============== Reply 24 of Note 25 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 01/27
From: DNBR75A S THOMSEN Time: 1:19 PM
Ruth, I like that idea of "image/moment." While Grace
Paley's writing differs from Carver's, I think she does some
of the same thing. Her stories don't necessarily have the
beginning/middle/end plot thing going on. Interesting.
Susan, still looking for the "Gravy" poem by Carver
=============== Reply 25 of Note 25 =================
To: DNBR75A S THOMSEN Date: 01/27
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 7:51 PM
I think you're right about Grace Paley. I like her work,
too.
Ruth
=============== Reply 26 of Note 25 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 01/27
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 9:49 PM
Ruth,
I really enjoyed your post about capturing the moment. I
have a couple of stories that I want to post about, one of
them being "The Elephant". But as usual, I have spent so
much time trying to get on Prodigy that I don't have time
today. Jane, breezing by, in Denver where it was a lovely
day for a parade
=============== Reply 27 of Note 25 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 01/29
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 9:31 PM
Gosh,I have been away from the board for a couple of days
and there are no new posts on Carver.
I found the story "Elephant" to be very interesting. Why
was this man working himself to death for his freeloading
family? I had a feeling that he was enjoying this
situation. The story seemed to be told with humor,
particularly when the narrator mentioned his ex-wife. She
knew that she was going to get her money, no matter what. I
looked at the quote that gave the story the title. The
narrator is riding on his father's shoulders, and his father
says, "Don't muss my hair...You can let go...I've got you.
You won't fall." Then the narrator says, "My dad went on
walking while I rode on his shoulders. I pretended he was
an elephant." Is the narrator now the elephant who won't
let any of his family members fall? He reminds me of my dad
who has a similar philosophy about helping his family
members. The narrator needed Ray Charles to sing "I'm
Busted" to one and all.
The story "Errand" really surprised me because of the
historical setting and characters. Was Carver really
envisioning his own death by using the death of Chekhov to
tell his own feelings?
Barb, I really enjoyed this book. Thanks for recommending
it. I need to be forced by CR's to read short stories.
Jane in warm and sunny Colorado
=============== Reply 28 of Note 25 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 01/29
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 10:40 PM
What about the story with the ugly baby? The ugly baby and
the peacock. Got to me something metaphoric there. Has
anyone one got any guesses? I can't get this story out of
my head.
Ruth, blanking out on the elephant
=============== Reply 29 of Note 25 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 02/01
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 0:30 AM
This was such a great book it's a pity our discussion has
barely scratched the surface. I think it has more to do
with the form of the book than with its content, though. So
many very short stories, it's hard to get a coherent
discussion going. Suffice it to say, I LOVED THIS BOOK.
Was it your nomination Barbara?
Ruth
=============== Reply 30 of Note 25 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 02/01
From: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Time: 9:35 AM
I agree with you Ruth. Maybe we should have read each story
one at a time and talked about it. I finished the whole
thing before starting the discussion and found that I had
forgotten titles and some details. I really meant to go back
and reread parts so I could discuss them. I know some of the
earlier stories had twists to them that I wanted to ask
about. I'll be back (famous last words).
Sherry in snow-melting Milwaukee
=============== Reply 31 of Note 25 =================
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 02/01
From: KEXT98A TONYA PRESLEY Time: 1:11 PM
Sherry,
You'll recall I said at chat I was trying to get out of this
book, by starting others and so on. That was a mistake, of
course, caused by choosing to read a few at random, out of
order, that simply did not click for me. Because of my
personality type or astrological sign or something else I
don't understand, I won't give these annoying stories
another thought.
In the end, I love the book. I really enjoyed recognizing
scenes from SHORT CUTS, and wound up renting that movie
again last week. Tonya, glad I read this book
=============== Reply 32 of Note 25 =================
To: KEXT98A TONYA PRESLEY Date: 02/01
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 8:17 PM
I've read three stories from Carver's collections, while
standing at Barnes & Noble. I liked them a lot, but it was
all I had time for in the frantic month of January.
Particularly liked 'Elephant' -- a tale of another ENTJ.
Dick
=============== Reply 33 of Note 25 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 02/01
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 9:16 PM
Dick,
ENTJ?? Jane along with Spot
=============== Reply 34 of Note 25 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 02/01
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 11:28 PM
You know. One of those Oscar-Meyer-Pigs rational/mobilizers?
Dick
=============== Reply 2 of Note 2 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 02/14
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 6:31 PM
Sherry tells me that I'm not too late to post some more
notes here and so I will. My real life has been absorbing
all of my time lately and I just haven't had a chance to
get back.
The recording of the interview of Carver that I listened
to was done just prior to the publishing of the CATHEDRAL
collection of stories. Carver was telling the interviewer
about them with this sort of quiet pride. He
said that he thought that it was the best work of his
career to that point. I tend to agree with him but wonder
if others do. When I read the book of interviews with his
associates, a number of them liked the wilder quality of
his earlier writing the best. You can look at the index in
the front and see which stories came from what collection.
Do you agree?
Barb
=============== Note 21 =================
To: ALL Date: 01/12
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 9:20 AM
ALTMAN on RAYMOND CARVER, (Part 1) from the introduction to
the volume SHORT CUTS ***
Raymond Carver made poetry out of the prosaic. One critic
wrote that he "revealed the strangeness concealed behind the
banal," but I think what he really did was capture the
wonderful idiosyncrasies of human behavior, the
idiosyncrasies that exist amid the randomness of life's
experiences. And human behavior, filled with all its mystery
and inspiration, has always fascinated me.
I look at all of Carver's work as just one story, for his
stories are all occurrences, all about things that just
happen to people and cause their lives to take a turn. Maybe
the bottom falls out. Maybe they have a near-miss with
disaster. Maybe they just have to go on, knowing things they
don't really want to know about one another. They're more
about what you *don't* know rather than what you *do* know,
and the reader fills in the gaps, while recognizing the
undercurrents.
In formulating the mosaic of the film SHORT CUTS, which is
based on these nine stories and the poem "Lemonade," I've
tried to do the same thing--to give the audience one look.
But the film could go on forever, because it's like
life--lifting the roof off the Weathers' home and seeing
Stormy decimate his furniture with a skillsaw, then lifting
off another roof, the Kaisers', or the Wymans', or the
Shepherds', and seeing some different behavior.
We've taken liberties with Carver's work: characters have
crossed over from one story to another; they connect by
various linking devices; names may have changed. And though
some purists and Carver fans may be upset, this film has
been a serious collaboration between the actors, my
co-writer Frank Barhydt, and the Carver material in this
collection.
When I first spoke to the poet Tess Gallagher, Ray's
widow, about wanting to make this film, I told her I wasn't
going to be pristine in my approach to Carver and that the
stories were going to be scrambled. She instinctively
recognized and encouraged this, and said Ray was an admirer
of my film NASHVILLE, that he liked the helplessness of
those characters and their ability to manage nevertheless.
She also knew that artists in different fields must use
their own skills and vision to do their work. Cinematic
equivalents of literary material manifest themselves in
unexpected ways.
Through the years of writing, shaping, and planning SHORT
CUTS, through the myriad financial dealings and turnarounds,
Tess and I had numerous discussions and conducted a steady
correspondence. The way she received information changed my
attitude about things, so I feel I've had discussions with
Ray through Tess. She's been a real contributor to the film.
I read all of Ray's writings, filtering him through my own
process. The film is made of little pieces of his work that
form sections of scenes and characters out of the most basic
elements of Ray's creations--new, but *not* new. Tess and
Zoe trainer, the emotionally displaced mother and daughter
played by Annie Ross and Lori Singer, provide the musical
bridges in the film--Annie's jazz and Lori's cello. They are
characters Frank Barhydt and I invented, but Tess Gallagher
felt they were consistent with Ray's characters and could
have come out of his story "Vitamins."
Raymond Carver's view of the world, and probably my own,
may be termed dark by some. We're connected by similar
attitudes about the arbitrary nature of luck in the scheme
of things--the Finnegans' child being hit by a car in "A
Small, Good Thing," the Kanes' marriage upheaval resulting
from a body being discovered during a fishing trip in "So
Much Water So Close to Home."
***
(Concluded in next post)
=============== Reply 1 of Note 21 =================
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 01/13
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 11:11 AM
ALTMAN on CARVER, Part 2 (Concl.) from the foreword to the
collection SHORT CUTS
***
Someone wins the lottery. The same day, that person's
sister gets killed by a brick falling off a building in
Seattle. Those are both the same thing. The lottery was won
both ways. The odds of either happening are very much
against you and yet they both happened. One got killed and
the other got rich; it's the same action.
One of the reasons we transposed the settings of the
stories from the Pacific Northwest to Southern California
was that we wanted to place the action in a vast suburban
setting so that it would be fortuitous for the characters to
meet. There were logistical considerations as well, but we
wanted the linkages to be accidental. The setting is
untapped Los Angeles, which is also Carver country, not
Hollywood or Beverly Hills--but Downey, Watts, Compton,
Pomona, Glendale--American suburbia, the names you hear
about on the freeway reports.
We have 22 principal actors in the cast, and they brought
things to this film I wouldn't have dreamed of, thickening
it, enriching it. Part of this I have to attribute to the
foundation of SHORT CUTS--the Carver writings.
Only three or four of these actors ever appeared together
in the film because each week we began another story, with
another family. But we gave the cast all of the original
stories, and many went on to read more of Ray's work. The
first family we filmed were the Piggotts', Earl and Doreen,
played by Tom Waits and Lily Tomlin, in their trailer park
and at Johnnie's Broiler, a classic California coffee shop
where Doreen waitresses. Their work was so superb that I
thought I'd be in trouble, but all of the actors stepped up
to that level, going beyond or sideways from my
expectations, taking over and redefining their roles.
The characters do a lot of storytelling in the film,
telling little stories about their lives. Many of them are
Carver stories or paraphrases of Carver stories or inspired
by Carver stories, so we always tried to stay as close as
possible to his world, given film's collaborative
imperative.
The actors also realized that the particulars these Carver
people are talking about aren't the same thing. The elements
seemed flexible. They could be talking about anything. Which
is not to say the language isn't important, but its subject
doesn't have to be X, Y, or Z. It could be Q or P or H.
It's a matter of who these people are that determines how
they respond to what they're saying. It's not what they're
saying that causes the scene to happen, but the fact that
these characters are playing the scene. So whether they're
talking about how to make a peanut butter sandwich or how to
murder their neighbor, the content isn't as significant as
what these characters feel and do in the situation, as they
develop.
Writing and directing are both acts of discovery. In the
end, the film is there and the stories are there and one
hopes there is a fruitful interaction. Yet in directing
SHORT CUTS, certain things came straight out of my own
sensibility, which has its differences, and this is as it
should be. I know Ray Carver would have understood that I
had to go beyond paying tribute. Something new happened in
the film, and maybe that's the truest form of respect.
But it all began here. I was a reader turning those pages.
Trying on these lives.
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My own favorite Carver story is "Why Don't You Dance?" No
matter how many times I read it, it hits me like a ton of
bricks. Not quite reality, not quite fantasy, not quite
magical realism, but a very potent brew of something that
touches our idealized notion of domesticity at its raw core.
Dale in Ala.
I get the feeling that he
tried to look at his own and other's humanity with no gauze
over the camera, if you know what I mean. For instance,
Earl in "They're Not Your Husband" is expressing
some pretty common human feelings, but very few people are
telling others about them.
Barbara Moors
Carver's use of details, and how most of his stories
are not "stories" in the sense of a plot with a beginning,
middle and end, but just snips or glimpses, reminds me of
what my poetry teacher is always urging us to do--focus on
what he calls the "image/moment".
Ruth Bavetta
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