Synopsis:
"Somehow or other I seem to have slipped in between all the 'schools,'" observed Nathanael West the year before his untimely death in 1940. "My books meet no needs except my own, their circulation is practically private and I'm lucky to be published." Yet today, West is widely recognized as a prophetic writer whose dark and comic vision of a society obsessed with mass-produced fantasies foretold much of what was to come in American life. Miss Lonelyhearts (1933), which West envisioned as "a novel in the form of a comic strip," tells of an advice-to-the-lovelorn columnist who becomes tragically embroiled in the desperate lives of his readers.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (20 of 31),
Read 66 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, May 24, 2000 11:14 AM
For some reason I thought of Flannery O’Connor in connection with
Nathanael West. He seems almost to be an anti-Flannery, but I’m
wondering if his parody is so over-the-top that it comes full circle
to an affirmation of some kind of spiritual dimension? Or have I just
had too much caffeine?
In any event, I looked in the index of Flannery’s collected letters,
THE HABIT OF BEING, and found two references to West. In one,
she recommends his DAY OF THE LOCUST to a writing friend, and
the other says this:
Jack Hawkes is going to lecture at Brandeis University soon on
some aspect of grotesque writing and is going to include me along
with West, Djuna Barnes, and himself, so he asked to see my novel
and I sent it to him. Now I am very sorry I did because any
perception so fine as his will find it dull and he is so awfully polite,
so much a gentleman, that he will not want to say what he really
thinks. The more I hear from him, the more impressed I am.
As far as I can tell, the novel she sent was WISE BLOOD.
>>Dale in Ala.
(PS: Speaking of black-and-white, I'm trying to envision all the
colors that parents' faces would turn if MISS LONELYHEARTS were
ventured as a high school text. Think they'd buy the argument "But
it's supposed to be grotesque"?)
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (21 of 31),
Read 56 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, May 24, 2000 01:19 PM
Dale: Grotesque seems to be the operative word to describe this
book, doesn't it? You know, its sort of interesting how we humans
love to delve into the more pleasant aspects of ourselves but run,
almost as if scared to death ,when faced with any sort of mirror
that reflects our most basic ugly sides? I think high school kids
would not be harmed at all by reading this book. It's the parents
who would feel the ugliness of the mirror's reflection...i think...could
it be the most disturbing aspect of this character is that he didn't
run from the ugliness of his life?
Beej
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (22 of 31),
Read 51 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Wednesday, May 24, 2000 01:43 PM
We read both Day of the Locust and Miss Lonelyhearts as electives
in senior year English. Don't recall anyone's parents having a
coronary, not that many of our parents paid that much attention to
what we were reading. In those days, if it was assigned it was
presumptively good, at least around here.
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (23 of 31),
Read 53 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, May 24, 2000 02:13 PM
Here's a semi-brief bio of West I found on the Web. A bizarre life,
indeed.
***
Nathanael West (1903-1940) - original name Nathan Weinstein (until
1926)
American writer who satirized the American dream and saw that
liberty and freedom have been turned into a bizarre nightmare. West
attracted posthumously attention after World War II first in France.
He was fascinated by what he called 'the secret inner life of
masses', where the power of unfilled desires always threatens to
turn into malignant violence.
"At college, and perhaps for a year afterwards, they had believed in
literature, had believed in Beauty and in personal expression as an
absolute end. When they lost this belief, they lost everything.
Money and fame meant nothing to them. They were not wordly
men." (from Miss Lonelyhearts, 1933)
Nathanael West was born in New York, N.Y. as the son of immigrant
German Jews from Lithuania. His mother was Anna (Wallenstein)
Weinstein, and father, Max Weinstein, a construction contractor. As
a young man West showed little ambition. He studied at Brown
University, Providence, where he befriended the writer and humorist
S.J. Perelman - he married West's sister. During these years he
started to draw cartoons and write short surrealistic sketches,
which he later collected as the novel THE DREAM LIFE OF BALSO
SNELL (1931). West did not take his studies seriously - he borrowed
his cousin's work and presented it as his own and failed a crucial
course in modern drama.
In 1924 West graduated with a Ph.B. degree and changed his name
legally to Nathanael West. He spent a couple of years in Paris. He
wrote there his first novel, The Dream Life of Balso Snell (1931), a
fantasy about western civilization set in the innards of the Trojan
horse. Back in the United States, West managed small hotels,
Kenmore Hall from 1927 to 1930 and the Sutton Club Hotel from
1930 to 1933. In these jobs West was able to assist other writers
offering them free housing. Among his visitants were Dashiell
Hammett, James T. Farrell, and Erskine Caldwell.
Hotel life offered West numerous anecdotes which he used in his
works. In the early 1930s West worked as a journalist and was
involved with a pair of literary magazines. These experiences gave
material for his second novel, MISS LONELYHEARTS (1933), an
allegory of America as it struggled through the Depression.
The story depicts a male newspaper columnist, correspondence pen
name Miss Lonelyhearts, who develops a Christ complex and
becomes tragically involved with one of his correspondents. The
advice columnist is a therapist, priest and messiah to to those
alienated and in pain, but he is himself unable to live in the world of
decay and emptiness by the help he offers others.
Despite critical success the book sold poorly. West continued with
similar theme of good aims gone wrong in his next novel, A COOL
MILLION (1934), an attack on the optimistic rags-to riches ideal.
The story reflected his childhood memories, when his father gave
him several popular Horatio Alger novels to read - hoping that he
would enter the family business.
West moved first time to Hollywood in 1933, to work on a film
version of Miss Lonelyhearts. He returned in 1935, and lived in a
cheap hotel called the Pa-Va-Sed, on North Ivar Street, near
Hollywood Boulevard. In the years before he found employment,
West spent time among the outcasts of Los Angeles. He remained in
Hollywood for the rest of his life, working as a scriptwriter for
smaller studios like Monogram.
During this time West published THE DAY OF THE LOCUST (1939), a
study of the fragility of illusion. Many critics consider it with F.
Scott Fitzgerald's unfinished masterpiece The Last Tycoon (1941)
among the best novel written about Hollywood. The protagonist,
Tod Hackett, comes to California in hopes of a career as a scenic
artist but soon joins the disenchanted second-rate actors,
technicians, laborers and other characters living on the fringes of
the movie industry.
Tod finds work on a film called prophetically 'The Burning of Los
Angeles', and the dark comic tale ends in an apocalyptic mob riot
outside a Hollywood première, as the system runs out of control.
"In the center of the field was a gigantic pile of sets, flats and
props. While he watched, a ten-ton truck added another load to it.
This was the final dumping ground. He thought of Janvier's
"Sargasso Sea." Just as that imaginary body of water was a history
of civilization in the form of marine junkyard, the studio lot was one
in the form of a dream dump. A Sargasso of the imagination! And
the dump grew continually, for there wasn't a dream aloaf
somewhere which wouldn't sooner or later turn up on it, having first
been made photographic by plaster, canvas, lath and paint." (from
the Day of the Locust)
By a bizarre coincidence, Fitzgerald and West died on the same
weekend in December, 1940. West was killed in an automobile
accident on December 22, near El Centro, California, with his wife
Eileen McKenney. West was recently married, with better-paid
script work coming in, and returning from a trip to Mexico.
Distraught over hearing of his friend's Fitzgerald's death, he crashed
his car after ignoring a stop sign.
West considered himself an outsider. He believed that society was
decaying, and that the American dream is a sad, monstrous myth.
He wrote only four books, of which The Day of the Locust turned
out to be a success. Paradoxically he had in Hollywood, for the first
time, high hopes for the future and a stable financial situation.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (25 of 31),
Read 30 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ernest Belden (drernest@pacbell.net)
Date:
Thursday, May 25, 2000 09:55 PM
Dale, Dan, Beej and all,
Dale you did a fine job with your biographical sketch of West. I was
able to get a copy from our local library. Complete works... Octagon
Books N.Y. 78. These particular books has have a special meaning
for me. One of my best friends recommended it to me after telling
me that much of my other reading was junk. So I did read both Miss
Lonelyheart and The Day of the Locust. This took place somewhere
between 1950 and 53 while we were both working as army
psychologists at Ft. Ord, CA.
I got started reading Lonelyheart once more the other night and to
my surprise could not remember a thing about it. So I looked at Day
of the Locust and this I do remember quite well. It made a profound
impression on me. I do remember that I had the impression of
immeasurable sadness after reading these two books. I just curious
if I find these books more cheerful this time around.
Ernie
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (26 of 31),
Read 20 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Friday, May 26, 2000 07:13 AM
Was MISS LONELYHEARTS not published during the depression? I
can't help but wonder what sociol-dynamics this book might have
caused within the literary world at a time when morale was already
"beaten and trodden upon"...
Beej
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (27 of 31),
Read 19 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Friday, May 26, 2000 07:48 AM
Hello All--
Ironically, the critic Harold Bloom's brand new book 'How to Read
and Why' deals briefly but well with Miss Lonelyhearts... and
connects West to O'Conner and to Faulkner's As I Lay Dying.
I am not an unreserved fan of this novel. Sometimes I think it is the
best thing of its kind ever written... and sometimes I think its own
darknesses overcome it. For a narrative so small and economical, it
plays for huge stakes, parodying Christ, Creation, Self, and nearly
everything West could think of.
In Middle school I was assigned to read a book I hated- I read it,
and every page I completed I tore out. In an adolescent way, I
fantasized that my reading the book destroyed the book as I went (
I didn't calculate the possibility of OTHER copies...hey, I never
claimed to be bright)...and it seems to me that West destroys his
own book similarly and progressively with the very process of
WRITING it. ML himself feels that Shrike has enclosed Christ with 'a
thick glove of words' that ruin Him, the letters embodied in the text
accumulate into a psychic assault, and the best writing in the novel
(Shrike's speeches) is the deadliest.
What to do with a book that uses the sharpness of its own words
as mini-spades to dig its own grave and then invites us to jump in?
Shrike says (on ML's behalf) 'I feel like Hell' and he means it: these
characters are little encapsulated Hells of their own, and when they
try to open up to anyone they unleash small, personal apocalypses
instead. If I don't find something on the order of redemption in this
book soon, pages will start to fly! I hope this discussion can save
my copy of 'Miss Lonelyhearts' because its a nice hardcover edition
I would hate to lose....
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (28 of 31),
Read 16 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Friday, May 26, 2000 08:37 AM
George: "Little encapsulated hells of their own" sure nails these
characters. Offhand I can't think of a more unrelentingly dark book.
Many of the scenes...Miss Lonelyhearts' visit to his girlfriend, for
instance...seem totally incomprehensible to me, the dialog and the
actions alike. But nonetheless they jab a little knife blade into the
pit of my stomach, which tells me West is writing at a level--or a
depth--that somehow goes beyond literal comprehension.
At least, you can't say he's derivative. {G}
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (29 of 31),
Read 18 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Friday, May 26, 2000 08:51 AM
perhaps ML has become conditioned to believe his rewards in life
come from his reactions to misery...sort of a bit like Pavlov's dogs...i
dunno...
Beej
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (30 of 31),
Read 11 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Friday, May 26, 2000 09:06 AM
From his adoption of other's misery maybe, Beej.
Fantastic note, George. Fantastic. But at the same time a little
frightening. Are you sure you aren't losing your distance from ML in
the same way he lost his distance from his correspondents? Don't
do it, George. Don't do it!
Steve
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (31 of 31),
Read 14 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@mindspring.com)
Date:
Friday, May 26, 2000 08:47 AM
Hey, CR! No fair! No fair!
The discussion on Miss Lonelyhearts has been interesting, and will
give me insight when I finally get around to reading it.
BUT................could we hold further discussion until June 1st?
Of course, I could just not read the thread until then, and will do
that if the understandable urge to post continues to overwhelm
CR's, but I already feel like a lagger. And I know you all wouldn't
want a fellow CR to fall into the depths of a tbr self deprecating
funk, now would ya? :-)
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (32 of 38),
Read 30 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, May 26, 2000 11:45 AM
I took a field trip with a bus full of screaming students to New
Orleans. During lulls in faculty conversations, I read Miss
Lonelyhearts in its entirety for a second time.
Every now and then a peer or a student would stoop over, frowning
at my frown. "What you're reading, Mr. LeBoeuf?"
The first time someone asked this, I couldn't answer. I opened my
mouth, shrugged, made a gesture in the air, squinted, and finally
the student just went away. Every time after that I would just lift
up the cover to be read and interpreted by the questionner.
What a bizarre little novel. I honestly could not answer just a simple
question: "What are you reading?" I don't know, I honestly don't
know but I continue to witness the events wide-eyed with wonder.
Suffering with literary
aphasia,
Dan
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (33 of 38),
Read 32 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Friday, May 26, 2000 11:47 AM
Dan: You're very welcome. You are no shabby information-poster
yourownself.
Kay: Guess you'll have to cover your eyes, because the horse is out
of the barn here, for which I bear large responsibility.{G}
What's the great line in the Old Testament..."If I hold my tongue,
the rocks will cry out."
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (34 of 38),
Read 25 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Friday, May 26, 2000 01:46 PM
Just in case nobody noticed, there's a neat piece of symbolism
going on here. a shrike is a kind of bird that feeds on insects and
such. Impales 'em on thorns for safekeeping, careless of whether
they're still wiggling.
Ruth
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (35 of 38),
Read 26 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Anne Wilfong (annewilfong@worldnet.att.net)
Date:
Friday, May 26, 2000 02:02 PM
Ruth,
Being a birder, I picked up on that right away, too. I just started
reading this today as I waited for my mammogram...now I must get
back to it, because, like Dan, I'm not too sure (i>what I'm
reading yet!
Anne
Reading is life...the rest is just details
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (36 of 38),
Read 25 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sara Brennan (se_brennan@hotmail.com)
Date:
Friday, May 26, 2000 02:04 PM
I didn't notice, Ruth... and it's a point well worth noticing. Ye gods!
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (37 of 38),
Read 21 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Friday, May 26, 2000 02:36 PM
In years when we have 'blooms' of shrews, in the spring the shrikes
hunt them out of their snow tunnels by the dozen and hang the
little bodies on the bare limbs of the silver birches. It's almost
medieval to see all those tiny bodies swinging in the naked
branches.
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (38 of 38),
Read 18 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Janet Mego (vsjego@cs.com)
Date:
Friday, May 26, 2000 05:36 PM
Just got back from Tennessee and visiting my brother for a few
days. I picked up the book in one of those great old-and-rare-books
stores (called "The Odd Volume") in Jackson, TN, the kind of place I
dearly love and have trouble leaving. I'm halfway through this work,
and see ML and Shrike as two very dark (I know the adjective's
been used a lot, but it is so apt) alter-egos of Sinclair Lewis's
George Babbit, for some reason. Babbit was humorous in its satirical
style; this is ominous and even ghoulish, but does anyone else see
this comparison? Maybe something I'm forgetting about Babbit
struck a chord. . it's been a while.
Speaking of symbols, what about the description of the sacrificial
lamb incident at the book's onset? =a Nihilistic need to sacrifice the
innocent (as ML does by agreeing to take on the column) but a
failure to completely achieve or be amoral about that sacrifice, to
become haunted instead (as occurs with the failed sacrifice of the
lamb and the return to put it out of its misery)???? Just thinking out
loud here-bear with me. I should probably finish the book first or
wait til June as Kay asked, but I'm already dying to discuss this one.
. .
Janet, wanting to make up for lost time from other classic threads. .
.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (39 of 63),
Read 52 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Saturday, May 27, 2000 08:58 AM
I know, in the Old Testament, the slaughtering of the lambs was
symbolic of the promised messiah. Wasn't Miss Lonelyheart's father
a Baptist minister? also, they were chanting,"Christ, Christ, Jesus
Christ.."I think there is more in that little lambs tale(LOL) than
meets the eye.
Beej
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (40 of 63),
Read 46 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ernest Belden (drernest@pacbell.net)
Date:
Saturday, May 27, 2000 02:42 PM
I finished Miss Lonelyheart last night and must agree with some of
you who called the book bizarre. I think those of us who have lived
during depression days when everything seemed hopeless and
useless can make better sense of the writing. There was no hope
and the value systems were out the window but for the one's
anchored in religion. West, in a way put all that into this book.
In the first incident of Miss Lonelyhearts illness Shrike comes to his
room and gives him a number of alternatives to his present
circumstances. Miss L. turns them all down as I remember BUT
ended with a trial to one alternative, going to the farm and this is
where he felt better but can't stay for ever. The heavy drinking
that goes on offers another escape which does not work too well.
The ending when Miss L. beats up on the Doyle woman who then
told her husband a lie which leads to Miss L.'s death for all the
wrong reasons is the ultimate joke that fate can play.
Contemporary readers who have not experienced the horror of
these times will see this book as a bizarre and strange story. But go
ahead and ask depression survivors about the mood of the people
and state of the world during the thirties, especially in the big
towns.
Ernie
PS. Just a bit of warning. History repeats itself - somebody has
said.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (41 of 63),
Read 46 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Janet Mego (vsjego@cs.com)
Date:
Saturday, May 27, 2000 03:19 PM
Beej,
I agree there are probably several levels of symbolism going on in
the lamb's sacrifice. The lamb also represented Christ himself
(William Blake used this idea a lot in his poetry), but I can't
remember if that's New or Old Testament.
The sacrifice of the lamb factors in there, too, I'd wager: the
innocence and goodness of Christ put on a level with all the victims'
(ML's writers) being sacrificed to the hypocrisy and falseness of the
farce. The country life echoes a Garden of Eden paradise,
superficially, but doesn't work because it's too late.
The consequence of it all seems to parallel Christian theology as
well: Mankind is doomed to a sinful, unhappy existence.
Finished reading this one early this morning. Felt a hollow sort of
iciness at the conclusion. . .
Janet, again, thinking out loud and not sure of anything at this
point.. .
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (42 of 63),
Read 51 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Saturday, May 27, 2000 03:29 PM
Now , wasn't this entire slaughtering of the lamb business a dream?
I suppose i should re-read the entire story again and see what i can
see...There is sooo much symbolism in this book....layers upon
layers upon layers....
Beej
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (43 of 63),
Read 52 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Saturday, May 27, 2000 05:26 PM
The word that is continually used with respect to West's work is
'grotesque', in the literal sense. By exaggerating individual events or
perspectives, he brings them into sharper dramatic contrast and
enhances the inherent internal conflict (how can you love the
afflicted, as commanded by Christ, if by noticing and accepting
their suffering your own humanity is submerged?).
Although many portions of the book are written in terms of Christian
religious cant, I think West's aim is broader than any single religion,
or even religion as a whole. Instead, he aims at all the dreams and
inchoate hopes that have allowed suffering humanity to endure
over the centuries -- and chooses to illuminate how these dreams
have died and proven unavailing in the harsh light of modern life.
After ML's return to the city, after his 40 days in the carnal
wilderness with Betty, he realizes the interlude has not cured his
Christ-complex. Wandering the streets, he sees the destitute and
desperate one at a time, each story more horrific than the last. And
he begins to think about their plight:
" Prodded by his conscience he began to generalize. Men have
always fought their misery with dreams. Although dreams were
once powerful, they have been made puerile by the movies, radio
and newspapers. Among many betrayals, this one is the worst.
The thing that made his share in it particularly bad was that he
was capable of dreaming the Christ dream. He felt that he had
failed at it, not so much because of Shrike's jokes or his own
self-doubt, but because of his lack of humility."
Of course, humility doesn't work worth a damn, either, but then
nothing really does in the world of ML, except possibly lots of booze
and sex.
It's a great pleasure to revisit this tiny little book after an absence
of many years. And it's interesting that a story that filled me with
raucous enthusiasm as a young man defiant against the
meaninglessness and horror of it all, still has the power to touch me
35 years later. Many books lose that power with the passage of the
years. However, raucous enthusiasm has been replaced by a quiet
resolve to handle life only with a little dignity, defiance having
proven a non-starter.
Another interesting angle here is West himself. Born Nathan
Weinstein in New York City, in the finest traditions of literature,
America and modern Judaism, he fled first to Paris, then to
California, renamed himself (what else) Nathanael West and
proceeded to seek the godhead with a typewriter, ending up dead
at a young age, in that most quintessentially American of coffins, a
wrecked automobile. I don't know what it all means, but I do know
that Freud would have been up all night taking notes on this one.
I look forward to some lively discussion on this little gem.
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (44 of 63),
Read 52 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Saturday, May 27, 2000 05:30 PM
And you know, I don't want to sound like Johnny One-Note, but you
could certainly weave in a discussion of the Book of Job here
somewhere: "The Problem of Job As Seen Through The Thoroughly
Modern Eyes of A Jewish Kid With A Christian Spin".
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (45 of 63),
Read 57 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Saturday, May 27, 2000 05:41 PM
Dick: What wonderfully cogent and enjoyable notes! Just goes to
prove you were not cut out for yard work. {G}
Today, while out doing necessary family stuff, I couldn't get ML out
of my mind and in context thought of the quote (Camus? Sartre?
Other?), "If there is no God, then everything is permitted." I think
West has the most encompassing view of that "everything" I've
ever read, as least as it's applied to American society.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (46 of 63),
Read 50 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Saturday, May 27, 2000 06:45 PM
Enjoyed your note a lot, Dick. Very perceptive. This book left me in
a kind of miasma, a mood which will not lift. Same kind of feeling I
got when reading Wm. Burroughs.
Ruth
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (47 of 63),
Read 54 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Saturday, May 27, 2000 07:46 PM
Well -- Though I had every intention of reading this one with the
group here -- I won't get to this in time for THIS discussion. BUT --
I can tell you that it just went to the top of the list of important
TBR to pick up ASAP -- whew, Dick -- got me hooked with those
posts on top of all else I've been seeing here!
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (48 of 63),
Read 55 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Anne Wilfong (annewilfong@worldnet.att.net)
Date:
Saturday, May 27, 2000 08:27 PM
I finished this book today, and was quite thankful for the afterword
by Stanly Hyman to tell me what in the hell I just read. Certainly
you must peel this story like and onion, and get ready for the tears.
It was confusing, sad, comic, tragic...Just like the life of Miss
Lonelyhearts himself.
Looking forward to a rollicking discussion!
Anne
Reading is life...the rest is just details
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (49 of 63),
Read 47 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Saturday, May 27, 2000 10:45 PM
I've noticed some comparisons made here with the Book of Job and
Babbitt, so I guess I'll describe two which occurred to me:
(1) Dostoyevsky: Doesn't this novel read like American
Dostoyevsky? Miss L. is reading The Brothers Karamazov and
pondering the idea of universal love. Later, Goldsmith says: "How
now, Dostoievski?" he said. "That's the way to act. Instead of
pulling the Russian by recommending suicide, you ought to get the
lady with child and increase the potential circulation of the paper."
For me, even these overt hints would be unnecessary to see the
connection between Dostoyevsky's brooding philosophers and Miss
L: Similar characterizations, similar instances (note the dream
sequences which echo the dreams of Roskolnikov in Crime and
Punishment, and, most importantly, similar themes. Perhaps West
has produced a truly Dostoyevskian novel in our native tongue and
culture. And, not too surprisingly, it's chilling, it's bizarre, and it's
thought-provoking.
(2) The second comparison is with Jay M's Bright Lights, Big City.
The similarity between these two works illustrate that Jay M. was
certainly influenced by West's Miss L.. There's a similar search for
meaning in a chaotic, meaningless world. The protagonist in Bright
Lights works with the reference department, checking facts for a
magazine. He drinks, he has casual sex, but nothing makes his world
or his soul more content or meaningful. To me, Bright Lights is Miss
Lonelyhearts-Lite.
Dan
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (50 of 63),
Read 46 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Saturday, May 27, 2000 11:00 PM
Dan'l: I think the comment on Dostoyevsky is right on point,
although I do think ML is at one important remove from Raskolnikov:
ML's concerns are more universal than R's. In C&P, R's poverty and
hunger are as important as driving forces as are his moral views of
society. You cannot imagine the C&P story unfolding without R's
poverty and need as a driving force.
Conversely, ML's needs and driving motivations are purely spiritual
(except of course, when he's inspired by the tumescent Egyptian
obelisk; but, hey? Who wouldn't be?). I think that's an important
and critical distinction between the two works, although there's no
question West was looking to D for derivative force. I do think,
however, you might well construct an interesting argument that ML
is R, post-industrial revolution in the west.
I'm not familiar with the second author you cite and need to go
bone up. Not, of course, in the Egyptian obelisk-sense.
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (51 of 63),
Read 44 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, May 28, 2000 03:36 AM
Well, this is the most enjoyable 'pre-discussion' I think I've ever
read.
Dan- Dostoevsky bears deeply on ML (the 'no God/everything
permitted' quote is actually from Karamazov I believe)...a good
comparison, although ML is at root a satire and D's great novels are
not.
Janet- Many of ML's characters are missing something-- physically
(noses, height, been mutilated, etc.,)-- and I wonder if West is
hinting that, in this world anyway, innocence itself is destined to be
mutilated...? The cynical armor of Shrike, his followers, and the
intermittent armor of ML himself seems to be palpably protective: a
shield against a world that hacks away...
Steve- How difficult it is to maintain 'distance'-- as everyone's
notes attest. The inarticulate message of ML haunts, comes to
mind at inappropriate moments of the day, and generally works its
way through your thoughts whether you like it or not...
Shrike uses rancid religious parodies at moments as techniques for
seduction (most memorably when he ends a sermon by 'burying his
face in her neck like the blade of a hatchet.'), and he seems to
recognize the power that a religious structure lends words. He
offers this advice to the masses: 'they should ask- give us this day
our daily stone.' Bread/stone/whatever... it doesn't matter really,
the last word is interchangeable. People are seduced by powerful
phrases regardless of their content, and Shrike masters that and
loves it, and if he is reduced sexually with his wife as West hints,
its probably because Shrike expends his energies raping language
itself. What Shrike loves, West fears: Shrike is to me the ultimate
example of 'sound and fury, signifying nothing' whereas West is
searching out content at a deeper level, maybe, than even words
can get to...
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (52 of 63),
Read 47 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Janet Mego (vsjego@cs.com)
Date:
Sunday, May 28, 2000 09:22 AM
Is it reaching too much to comment that SHRIKE is a very apt
combination of "shriek" and "strike"? The harshness of the
consonants, the onomatopoeia of the word itself, the character, all
seem indicative of a particularly shrewd and perhaps merciless--yet
razor-sharp-- approach to style and theme. Whereas "Betty" is all
apple pie (or apple betty) and denial, "Doyle" suggests a pitiful kind
of "Dolt" (and foil or toil?) perhaps (he misinterprets and limps
through plot in a doltish sort of way.)
The allegorical use of names in literature has always fascinated me.
Janet
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (53 of 63),
Read 34 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Sunday, May 28, 2000 10:58 AM
The dismemberment of his characters is a West trademark. For
example, Lemuel Pitkin, plucky and plucked hero of A Cool Million
loses chunk after chunk of himself in his tragi-comic quest for a
piece of the American dream. For Nathanael West, body-parts are
coin of the realm on the turnpike of life.
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (54 of 63),
Read 34 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Jim Heath (ddrapes@teleport.com)
Date:
Sunday, May 28, 2000 12:25 PM
Just for the sheer joy of causing trouble, I would like to suggest
that ML is a fairly unattractive character.
He's got a girlfriend who loves him, a reasonable job where he could
potentially help people a bit, and his health.
What's he do? Spends his time wallowing in other people's
misfortune and beating himself up because he's not Jesus Christ.
He's a world class procrastinator who because he can't do
everything, does nothing.
In other words, ML has a lot of everyone's worst characteristics
and the challenge is to no go wallowing with him, seductive as that
may be.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (55 of 63),
Read 39 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Sunday, May 28, 2000 12:45 PM
No question, Jim, he's a major-league failure as a human being, let
alone as a saint or (possibly) a martyr.
The ending of this has always intrigued me. Was ML really shot at
all? Was he killed? Why such an ambiguously lugubrious ending,
anyway?
My guess is simply that grotesque Westian humor again: ML has his
fever-born epiphany, arises from his sick-bed to heal the crippled
Doyle, but instead ends up in a comic, gunshot-riddled pratfall with
the very person whose withered limb he sought to miraculously
mend.
The ultimate bad news for man: even when God is strongest in us,
our humanity betrays us and our best instincts play out like
episodes from the Keystone Kops. There is no salvation, no nobility,
no relief from the pain, except possible in liquor, sex and finally,
death.
Kind of a cheerful young fellow, that Nathanael, wasn't he?
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (56 of 63),
Read 42 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Sunday, May 28, 2000 12:45 PM
I'm inclined to agree with you, Jim. I found little Christ-like about
ML, as he wallowed about in self-pity, striking out at everyone
around him. Not that Shrike couldn't use some striking out, but the
others were pitiful.
Ruth
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (57 of 63),
Read 30 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Sunday, May 28, 2000 03:44 PM
Now I didn't see self-pity in here. Nihilism, perhaps; clinical
depression, maybe; intense, even obsessive, preoccupation with
issues of redemption, certainly. But not self-pity.
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (58 of 63),
Read 39 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Sunday, May 28, 2000 03:57 PM
i didn't see any self pity either. I think this man was so angry at the
misery in the world that he wanted to inflict pain in order to rid
himself of pain. I think he, possibly, went through the various
stages of grief...grieving for his career, grieving for his helplessness,
grieving for his lack of passion. Just the train of thought I am on
now...what a complex character.....
Beej
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (59 of 63),
Read 31 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Sunday, May 28, 2000 09:05 PM
Janet, no question that there is significance in Shrike's name, but I
think it's even simpler than you suggest. Try this, and tell me what
you think:
shrike: any of numerous usually largely gray or brownish oscine
birds that have a strong notched bill hooked at the tip, feed chiefly
on insects and often impale their prey on thorns.
Beej, I really do think you're onto something, and I don't say that
just to suck up. There is an allusion to this whole idea right here:
He read it for the same reason that an animal tears at a wounded
foot: to hurt the pain.
This idea of inflicting pain on pain sounds a little psychotic, but isn't
that exactly what we're dealing with here? Psychosis?
Obviously ML is a lousy person during the greater part of the novel,
but he is so, I think, because he really does have difficulty dealing
with the pain of other's. Further, I believe that he is truly starting
to wire himself together with this "stone" thing in the last two
chapters. He is finding a way to feel less and act more "normally."
And then he is capped.
Steve
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (60 of 63),
Read 33 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Sunday, May 28, 2000 09:33 PM
Oh, and Ernie, I take it you did not find this book any cheerier this
time around?
It is well to bear in mind your point concerning the depression. The
sheer amount of misery in the entire world today may equal that in
1933, the absolute dregs of the depression, but it certainly is not
immediately and graphically visible to the average American as it
was then. Hell, today there are young Americans who have worked
in the business world a long time and who have never even
experienced a down market, let alone seen any suffering.
We know that the depression affected West profoundly because he
wrote this bitter, bitter satire on the Horatio Alger stories called A
Cool Million that was published in 1936. I think your observations
are perfectly apt.
Ernie, I also take it that you don't believe we have yet repealed the
law of economic cycles? Does the fact that every Tom, Dick, and
Harry from the janitor on up has his negative net worth in the
equity markets and can talk of nothing else strike you as familiar?
Steve
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (61 of 63),
Read 19 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Jim Heath (ddrapes@teleport.com)
Date:
Monday, May 29, 2000 07:46 AM
It's hard to argue that someone is suffering from self pity when
they are really feeling sorry for someone else. Still there is
something basically self serving about saying, "Everything's awful,
so I guess I'll have a few drinks and hit on somebody else's wife."
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (62 of 63),
Read 14 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Janet Mego (vsjego@cs.com)
Date:
Monday, May 29, 2000 10:33 AM
Steve,
I'd noticed the bird analogy earlier in this thread (due to bird folks
pointing it out), and I agree wholeheartedly that that's part or most
of of the allegory here, especially the part you put in bold--I wasn't
aware of that charming characteristic of shrikes. West couldn't
have picked a better name for his character on that front. I do see
shrieking and striking going on, too, although again, I may be
reaching with my last point on this:
While she was talking, Shrike burst into the room. He was drunk
and immediately set up a great shout, as though he believed that
Miss Lonelyhearts was too near death to hear distinctly. . . But
Shrike was inescapable. He raised his voice and talked through the
blankets into the back of Miss Lonelyhearts's head. . .
West does other interesting things with names, too: Betty and ML
travel through New Haven and go to Monkstown on their quest for
spiritual cleansing through a return to nature. Satire without humor
enhances a very intense desolation and, again, darkness of tone
here.
Jim--I see your point,too. Also, don't the self-pity and the grieving
for others sort of overlap in West's theme? Isn't ML's CONNECTION
with the rest of humanity a premise here, so that when he
experiences the pitiful state of the rest of humanity, his own is
emphasized--and he can't deal with either? Is there some
transcendentalist influence such as Steinbeck emphasized when
addressing the Depression and its effects perhaps at work here?
==> the pain of others comes ultimately to merge with the pain of
one's self?
Janet
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (63 of 63),
Read 5 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, May 29, 2000 11:09 AM
Janet writes,
Isn't ML's CONNECTION with the rest of humanity a premise here,
so that when he experiences the pitiful state of the rest of
humanity, his own is emphasized--and he can't deal with either? Is
there some transcendentalist influence such as Steinbeck
emphasized when addressing the Depression and its effects
perhaps at work here? ==> the pain of others comes ultimately to
merge with the pain of one's self?
Janet: This struck a chord with me, as there is a somewhat New
Age-ish concept that transforms the word "empathy" from a quality
into an individual: "empath." As one Web page defines it,
An Empath is an aware individual who uses all their senses
(intuitively, psychically, emotionally, and spiritually) via holistic,
New Age and metaphysical means to explore what other people are
feeling and can offer alternatives or choices to assist people with
living the most enriched, quality-filled life they can, within their
own unique situations.
I would say that ML is great at the first part of this equation, but a
failure at the second. He can't even fully embrace any "alternatives
or choices" for himself, much less the suffering folks around him.
I also think this "empath" deal connects with authors, painters,
playwrights, what have you, who often lead sad lives at least in
part because (a) they are more sensitive than the average person
to other people's pain and difficulties, (b) this quality is in most
cases an involuntary one (its pain only switched off through drink,
drugs, etc.), and (c) the only "alternatives or choices" they can
offer are the alternate worlds they create within their work, worlds
that are often more frightening or depressing (see West, painter
Francis Bacon, Malcolm Lowry's UNDER THE VOLCANO, Graham
Greene's THE POWER AND THE GLORY, Cormac McCarthy's SUTTREE
and others, etc.) than the "average" person's view of real life.
Make any sense?
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (64 of 66),
Read 4 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Pres Lancaster (plancast@slip.net)
Date:
Monday, May 29, 2000 11:40 AM
DALE says,
"I also think this "empath" deal connects with authors, painters,
playwrights, what have you, who often lead sad lives at least in
part because (a) they are more sensitive than the average person
to other people's pain and difficulties . . ."
I would say that "they" are NOT, except in special cases, more
sensitive than the average person but, rather, because they
spend much time looking closely at the world, they more experience
the world's pain whereas the average person lives life behind his
defense screens.
Pres, who is in deep and out too far.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (65 of 66),
Read 4 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, May 29, 2000 11:52 AM
Pres: Good point, and I certainly didn't mean "sensitive" in the
sense of kind, caring, thoughtful, etc. In most cases (ML, for one)
the exact opposite is true. "Thin-skinned" might be more applicable.
A psychiatrist I interviewed once theorized that many artists are
simply not equipped, from birth, with any number of the cognitive
"filters" that are necessary for leading a normal life. Therefore, they
don't voluntarily choose to step out from behind their defense
screens and inspect the world--they're missing these screens, or
many of them, in the first place. Sort of like being born without
eyelids.
I don't think, for example, that a normal or emotionally healthy
person could possibly have written MISS LONELYHEARTS.
Interesting discussion!
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (66 of 66),
Read 5 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Monday, May 29, 2000 11:48 AM
We have a lot of different thoughts and inquiries going in a lot of
different directions. I would like to confuse things further.
I suspect Shrike of being a verbal prankster. Toward the beginning
of the chapter titled "Miss Lonelyhearts and the cripple," he appears
to be interrupted in the middle of some literary quote:
Mankind, mankind. . ." he sighed, wagging his head sadly. "What is
mankind that. . ."
I think he is just pontificating there and not quoting anything. The
instance of this in which I am really interested, however, occurs
toward the end of the chapter "Miss Lonelyhearts in the dismal
swamp:"
But don't take a chance, smoke a 3 B pipe, and remember these
immortal lines: "When to the suddenness of melody the echo
parting falls the failing day."
I don't think that is an immortal line at all. I think it is a nonsense
line off the top of Shrike's head.
Furthermore, is there any significance to a "3 B pipe" other than
some sort of nonsense play on the names Bach, Brahms, and
Beethoven?
Steve
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (66 of 84),
Read 46 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Monday, May 29, 2000 12:26 PM
I keep mulling around the idea, that ML is jealous of God...I think he
sees himself as another Jesus, healer of the sick, comforter of the
desperate. I think much of his inner turmoil comes from his
shortcomings in this regard. In essence, perhaps he has begun to
accept his publicity as a "savior" and is floundering because he
can't live up to his own reputation.I wonder if his recurring "Jesus"
dreams result because he truly believes he is in a unique kinship
with Jesus.
Beej
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (68 of 84),
Read 55 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Monday, May 29, 2000 12:30 PM
oops....didn't post that after the last entry in here...sorry about
that....
as far as empathy goes, I think, possibly < he is too self absorbed
to even truly consider helping these folks...I think all his advice is
given to somehow fulfill a need within himself.
Beej
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (69 of 84),
Read 58 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Janet Mego (vsjego@cs.com)
Date:
Monday, May 29, 2000 01:02 PM
Steve--
Wow--I just realized that when I was reading the line you
quoted,--When to the suddenness of melody. . .--it struck me that
there was something very familiar in the meter and the type of
wording--
I think I have a clue, now--there's a sonnet that begins, "When to
the sadness of misfortune. . .men's eyes . ."--or something like
that. It's Wordsworth or Shakespeare, I think, and I can't find a
copy of it here at home on my bookshelves. I KNOW I've got it at
work, tho. Anyway, someone will recognize it and post it, I hope.
My point is, was Shrike parodying the lines from this sonnet?
Sneering at them, perhaps?
Dale,
The idea of being born without eyelids in the metaphoric sense
really hit me, and is I think relevant here. Some folks are indeed
unable to filter out awareness of that sort, and they ARE usually
artists in some form or another. ML may be one of these--we do
seem to get a hint of a creative spirit at work here. Some (of his
colleagues, for example) may simply call it "too much imagination"
as ML assumes the role of "savior" toward the end, but it is a
creative endeavor, is it not?
Janet, off and running (at the mouth!), and loving it. . .great
discussion, guys!!
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (70 of 84),
Read 60 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Pres Lancaster (plancast@slip.net)
Date:
Monday, May 29, 2000 01:22 PM
"A psychiatrist I interviewed once theorized that many artists . . ."
theorized, i.e., my guess is as good as yours.
Pres
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (71 of 84),
Read 61 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, May 29, 2000 01:36 PM
I think I’ve taken an even darker view of this than most of you. It
seems to me that ML recoils from all those letters of woe and pleas
for help, not because he empathizes with them, but because he is
unable to. They cause merely fear and revulsion.
There might have been a time when he was able to empathize, but
the years of reading and responding to those agonies has burned it
out of him. Now all he can feel is revulsion.
He doesn’t care about the unfortunates of the world, he only cares
that they revolt him. Like many of the people in the book, he’s
missing a vital part—a heart. All he can do now is strike back. To
hurt the pain.
As for the religious stuff—can it be satiric? Perhaps West (thru ML)
is saying, “What good is God, if he lets stuff like this happen?”
I can see ML deliberately trying to provoke God by nailing that
Jesus directly to the wall of his bedroom. But nothing happens.
Ruth
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (72 of 84),
Read 57 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, May 29, 2000 01:39 PM
As for the sidebar question about how artists view life. I think that
many are drawn to art for many different reasons, not the least of
which is the making mudpies syndrome. But if one seriously follows
art (and I'm including writing), it forces one to remove those eyelids
and experience not only your pain, but the pain of others. If you
don't try and see life raw, you're not going to be successful.
Ruth
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (73 of 84),
Read 42 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, May 29, 2000 01:58 PM
Pres: Oh, no! The psychiatrist's guess had to be better than mine.
He was wearing a freshly-pressed white lab coat. {G}
Janet: John Gardner, in his book THE ART OF FICTION, makes a
case that writing fiction is a modified psychosis. Like a
schizophrenic, fiction writers literally see scenes and hear voices
that aren't real but which seem at the moment more real than the
"real" world. Only differences are that a writer (a) knows the
difference and (b) can turn this function on and off (well, OFF, at
least) at will by getting up and switching to some other activity. (If
I could turn it ON at will, my output would be about 10 times what
it is. {G})
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (74 of 84),
Read 54 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Janet Mego (vsjego@cs.com)
Date:
Monday, May 29, 2000 01:38 PM
Ok, minor moment of clarity here: It's, "When in disgrace with
fortune and men's eyes. . ." I THINK. So this probably doesn't relate
at all--but could Shrike be parodying some other sonnet-like lines
here? They do have that meter. . .
Funny the things that come to you when you're getting in your car
to go to town. This time, for sure, as Bullwinkle says.
Janet, whose car is running along with her mouth. . .
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (75 of 84),
Read 36 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Monday, May 29, 2000 02:47 PM
AHA! I KNEW i got that identifying with God business from
somewhere! Last chapter..
"When they became one, his identification with God was complete.
His heart was the one heart, the heart of God. And his brain was
likewise God's"......and..."God had sent him so that Miss
Lonelyhearts could perform a miracle......."..."He would embrace the
cripple and the cripple would be made whole again, even as he, a
spiritual cripple, had been made whole." To me, this says it all...
Beej
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (76 of 84),
Read 35 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, May 29, 2000 03:30 PM
Beej: Strong paragraph indeed. What it says to me is that when
your pursuit of God (or vice versa) becomes this intense and
absolute, your options grow very limited. You can be a mystic, a
saint, go crazy, or die. Or, I suppose, all of the above. Which do
you think ML achieved?
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (77 of 84),
Read 40 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Monday, May 29, 2000 03:38 PM
Dale, i don't think he achieved a damn thing.I think this is a classic
case of knocking your head against a brick wall. I think his aim was
not to become closer to God, but to actually become God..
Beej
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (78 of 84),
Read 37 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Monday, May 29, 2000 03:53 PM
ML also thought of himself as "the rock", and says neither laughter
or tears could affect the rock..it was perfect...To me , he is saying
by this that feeling any emotion is a flaw. When Betty tells him she
is pregnant, ..."He did not feel.....the rock had been thoroughly
tested and had been found perfect."
Beej
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (79 of 84),
Read 33 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, May 29, 2000 04:53 PM
Beej: Clearly no saint nor mystic, he. I do think ML achieved being
(presumably) dead, but do you think he was also crazy by that
point? Or does that question become rhetorical within a cast of
characters of the caliber West has laid out?
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (80 of 84),
Read 31 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
David Moody (davidmoody@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, May 29, 2000 04:58 PM
Janet:
Shakespeare, Sonnet #29
When, in disgrace with fortune and men's eyes,
I all alone beweep my outcast state
And trouble deaf heaven with my bootless cries
And look upon myself and curse my fate,
Wishing me like to one more rich in hope,
Featur'd like him, like him with friends possess'd,
Desiring this man's art and that man's scope,
With what I most enjoy contented least;
Yet in these thoughts myself almost despising,
Haply I think on thee, and then my state,
Like to the lark at break of day arising
From sullen earth, sings hymns at heaven's gate;
For thy sweet love remember'd such wealth brings
That then I scorn to change my state with kings.
David, glad that he can answer any question about this book!
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (81 of 84),
Read 29 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Monday, May 29, 2000 06:07 PM
Dale: I don't really know if he died..Maybe it isn't important to know
whether he did or not. Do you think he was insane? or crazy?or
depressed? Or were we allowed only to see one side of his
personality? I just don't know.
West didn't seem to want us to stray too far from this aspect of
ML's personality. i don't even see much development of the other
characters here.
Beej
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (82 of 84),
Read 16 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, May 29, 2000 09:35 PM
Wow, great discussion, everyone. I read ML this afternoon while
trying to recover from a bout with the flu. My condition made the
surrealistic qualities of the story even moreso. I definitely thought
of Dosteovsky while reading this...different goals/beliefs in the
authors, I think, but the nightmarish, desperate quality is similar. I
felt like I was watching competing madnesses developing in both ML
and Shrike...and I definitely thought that I was watching ML going
mad.
I may go back to reread parts of this, but don't know if I could
stand to read it all again just now.
Thanks for the bio, Dale, and to those of you who knew what a
shrike was. I wouldn't have caught that.
Barb
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (83 of 84),
Read 16 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Monday, May 29, 2000 10:01 PM
Well, Barbara Moors! This is a great discussion of this work, but we
have not even scratched the surface of it. I surely hope everybody
hangs in there until the bitter, bloody end on this one.
Steve
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (84 of 84),
Read 12 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ernest Belden (drernest@pacbell.net)
Date:
Monday, May 29, 2000 11:13 PM
This discussion is fantastic and made me remember a thought I had
when I read Dostoevski and another when I read ML. The first one
was that only D being a Russian can come up with so many
disasters and tragedies. I wrote something to this effect in my
postings. But West proves me wrong. There is disaster after
disaster in ML. Also ML reminded me very much of Franz Kafka. The
message being, there is incomprehensible chaos and suffering in the
world and things get rather bizarre.
Reflecting some more about ML and my own previous comment
regarding the depression days I changed my mind. The times and
the environment are not of prime importance. I hesitate but have to
agree with Dale that poor Mr. West must have had problems which
somehow surfaced in his writings. Dale, the Dr's conjecture that the
artists does not have the necessary filters to protect him from
seeing and perceiving the way the normal person sees (since he is
protected) makes a heck of a lot of sense. The artists reveal
themselves autobiographically or in their writings. Well, you may
ask: How about our friend Cellini. Did he suffer or was he fortunate
enough to "Project" his nasty and crooked impulses on his enemies,
and boy did he have enemies!!!
Have to admit that once I got into ML I was debating with myself
whether to quit or be brave and go on to the bitter end. I went on
to the bitter end. Well West is able to portray pain to the point
where the reader has no way to escape these feelings at least to
some degree.
So, I am off to read a bit of science. Nothing like it when you want
to escape pain.
Ernie
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (85 of 99),
Read 47 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, May 30, 2000 08:38 AM
Let's talk about stones.
From the '...our daily stone' bit to the crushing the lamb's head
with a stone bit to the 'Americans break stones furiously,
hysterically, almost as if they know the stones will some day break
them' line to the rock forming in his gut line to the infamous perfect
rock of calm at the end I think we have a symbolic theme.
If hysteria is risky, that rocky calm is even riskier... as ML's death
attests. ML is really crushed by his own inner rock, and only
inadvertently killed by Doyle's pistol (wrapped in a newspaper, of
course)... which is the deadlier element here? The letters in the
newspaper, the gun, Betty making Doyle panic, or ML's dangerous
obliviousness to Doyle's intentions and the whole situation? Why
part of the way down the stairs? If ML can no longer feel humility
and thinks he's Christ/Satan, is that half-fall West's compassionate
assertion that he's neither, that he can't fall or rise all the way as
Satan and Jesus had...?
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (86 of 99),
Read 47 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Tuesday, May 30, 2000 08:46 AM
george! much room for thought in that one! yes indeedy! and shall
we take it one step further and remember ..."Upon this rock i shall
build my church?"
Beej
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (87 of 99),
Read 47 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, May 30, 2000 08:53 AM
Here's a question I've been pondering, with no clear result: though
not a saint nor mystic, does ML qualify as a martyr? And/or, do you
think he considers himself one? And doesn't the term martyr, unlike
a soldier for a cause, imply a sort of passivity or compliance in the
face of one's own fate?
If it is a sort of martyrdom, admittedly he doesn't achieve much.
But isn't that a part of the point of martyrdom, that it's death
solely for a principle?
This book won't get its stone-like {G} teeth out of my behind.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (88 of 99),
Read 39 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sara Brennan (se_brennan@hotmail.com)
Date:
Tuesday, May 30, 2000 09:45 AM
I finished this book this weekend, but after having read all your
cogent comments, I feel like the the kid in the last row who is
hoping the teacher doesn't call on her. Guess I'll have to re-read it
in order to keep up with the rest of the class.
At this point I will say, though, that NW's telling of Miss L's dreams
is really, really good. Usually dreams sound fake when they're
written about, but in this book I got sucked right into them. And
between the dreamy delirium of ML and the madness of The Yellow
Wallpaper, I've felt kind of disoriented myself lately.
And Dale, I'm glad you brought up Graham Greene's THE POWER
AND THE GLORY. It's been a while since I read that one, but it left
me with the same impressions of defeat and despair.
Sara
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (89 of 99),
Read 41 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, May 30, 2000 09:49 AM
I sure didn't think he was a martyr, Dale. I thought he was a
despicable character, who only wanted to harm people. To me, he
suffered, not because others were in pain, but because they were
a pain in the ass to him.
Ruth
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (90 of 99),
Read 39 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Tuesday, May 30, 2000 11:12 AM
Dale, Do you think martyr and victim are synonymous?
Beej
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (91 of 99),
Read 19 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, May 30, 2000 03:06 PM
Beej: Even the dictionary waffles over "martyr," doesn't it?
The primary meaning is:
1. One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious
principles.
But these others follow:
2.One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to
further a belief, cause, or principle.
3.a. One who endures great suffering: a martyr to arthritis. b.
One who makes a great show of suffering in order to arouse
sympathy.
verb, transitive
martyred, martyring, martyrs
1.To make a martyr of, especially to put to death for devotion to
religious beliefs.
2.To inflict great pain on; torment.
[Middle English, from Old English, from Late Latin, from Late Greek
martur, from Greek martus, martur-, witness.]
Interesting, I think, that the root word is "witness." I never realized
that.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (92 of 99),
Read 20 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Tuesday, May 30, 2000 03:17 PM
So a martyr chooses to be a martyr? And a victim does not?
So...was ML a martyr or a victim? or neither?
Beej
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (93 of 99),
Read 23 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
David Moody (davidmoody@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, May 30, 2000 04:11 PM
Dale, it sounds like it comes from early Christian usage, when
believers suffered martyrdom for being "witnesses" of Christ.
I can't see ML as a martyr; he was trying to escape rather than
accepting the consequences of his actions. But not a victim either;
to my mind, that has the connotation of unmerited suffering
brought on by actions beyond one's control.
David
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (94 of 99),
Read 27 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, May 30, 2000 04:15 PM
David: Being neither victim nor martyr, I suppose ML's condition
would more accurately be described by the psychiatric term (here
in the South, at least) of "messed up." Hope Ernie can correct me
on this if I'm wrong. {G}
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (95 of 99),
Read 28 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, May 30, 2000 04:17 PM
And speaking of "messed up," I'm reminded of the comedian I once
heard who recreated a Christian fundamentalist testimony service:
"I used to be all messed up on drugs and liquor, but that was
before I found the Lord. Now, I'm all messed up on the Lord."
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (96 of 99),
Read 29 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Tuesday, May 30, 2000 04:45 PM
I think you'd be better off thinking of ML as a klutz rather than a
martyr. I mean the guy runs joyously to make the lame walk, and
ends up gunned down by accident and falling down the stairs (half
way, only of course).
Try as I might, I cannot imagine a painting glorifying the 'Martydom
of Saint Lonely Heart".
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (97 of 99),
Read 5 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, May 30, 2000 07:33 PM
To support George, I recall a phrase early on in this novel stating
that a "stone in the gut" was all ML had left.
I liken this "stone" business to a similar symbolic treatment in Yeats'
Easter, 1916:
Hearts with one purpose alone
Through summer and winter seem
enchanted to a stone
To trouble the living stream.
The horse that comes from the road,
The rider, the birds that range
From cloud to tumbling cloud,
Minute by minute they change;
A shadow of cloud on the stream
Changes minute by minute;
A horse-hoof slides on the brim,
And a horse plashes within it;
The long-legged moor-hens dive,
And hens to moor-hens call;
Minute by minute they live:
The stone's in the midst of all.
Modern society is one of the first civilizations that tries to subsist
without a common foundation, some bedrock that everyone
possesses or believes is at the root of their existence and purpose.
In other words, there's no "stone" in the midst of everything, no
solid bedrock of meaning and security in the chaos and flux of time.
In modern society, everyone is a free agent and there does not
seem a "stone in the midst of all," instead we have differing
problems.
ML has a "stone" within him, a supposed way to provide the
"Desparates" and the "Sufferings" with a solid foundation upon
which to lay their troubles. There's nothing but flux within this
novel. ML is searching for the bedrock of existence in religion,
having given up on art, bucolic bliss, drugs, and whatever else
Shrike pontificates on in a scene very much like a scene between
Raskolnikov and visiting "friends."
Dan
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (98 of
99), Read 12 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Pres Lancaster (plancast@slip.net)
Date:
Tuesday, May 30, 2000 07:00 PM
"MARTYR" - Constant Reader without access to WebBoard.
Pres
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (99 of
99), Read 5 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Tuesday, May 30, 2000 08:33 PM
And, of course, we have "stones" as in the grit in the gizzard that
grinds exceedingly fine, not to mention the "stones" that are
sometimes called cojones, and even the merely stoney heart.
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (100 of
102), Read 23 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Wednesday, May 31, 2000 03:49 AM
I must say, my reaction to Miss Lonelyhearts is much more
sympathetic than the sentiments of nearly everyone else as
expressed here. However, I will rethink my position. If thereafter I
cannot move off it, I will attempt to defend it.
Steve
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (101 of
102), Read 14 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
David Moody (davidmoody@prodigy.net)
Date:
Wednesday, May 31, 2000 08:49 AM
"Although his clothes had too much style, he still looked like the
son of a Baptist minister. A beard would become him, would
accent his Old Testament look.But even without a beard no one
could fail to recognize the New England puritan. His forehead was
high and narrow. His nose was long and fleshless. His bony chin
was shaped and cleft like a hoof.
This description of Miss Lonelyhearts struck me as sounding more
like the Devil than Christ. Which leads to a whole line of
speculation, wondering if even the Devil can get sick and tired of
the depravities and sorrow of mankind.
David
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (102 of
102), Read 12 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Wednesday, May 31, 2000 10:00 AM
Steve, you and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum on this one.
I'm feeling that everyone here (except possibly Jim) has ready ML
much more sympathetically than I have. I can't find an ounce of
martyr/victim in him.
Ruth
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (104 of
105), Read 21 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, May 31, 2000 01:02 PM
Steve--
I'm entrenching a similar position; if I get overrun I bequeath you
my ammo, my copy of ML (with pages), and a nearly-full bottle of
Bailey's...
Shrike's rhetoric has eaten away ML's 'ethics' like acid... I'm not
sure we ever get to see the real ML, given that he's been
destroyed already. Shrike has a much better mind, and so
dominates ML that when ML tries to 'convert' the Doyles, Shrike's
voice comes out of ML's mouth. ML is constantly comparing himself
to inanimate objects (bottles, glasses, stones, bombs, etc.,) and I
agree with both camps here: ML is an evil and secretly arrogant
loser/ML is a compassionate but lost soul. There's a line from King
Lear that goes: '...he has ever but slenderly known himself." ML
slenderly knows himself, and the only way he knows to explore
himself (words) is not to be trusted. He does perpetrate evil, but
incidentally and with bewilderment. His self-identifications are very
vivid but no help to him. Why does a man with a 'great,
understanding heart' only compare himself to objects?
More importantly (forgive the length of this note...), why does
west make ML such a BAD writer of columns? Shrike's one brief 'Art
is a way out' foray is written better than everything Ml writes put
together. And why is Shrike so concerned with attacking ART? ML
shows no real artistic impulse, his interests lie in Christ and religion.
I believe that Shrike is his own Shrike... art was his escape like
religion would be ML's, but Shrike's own mind has butchered him
and hung up the still-speaking corpse to suffer and to destroy
others. Shrike tells Doyle: '...you can know nothing of humanity,
you ARE humanity.' Shrike knows a great deal about humanity, so
what does that make him...?
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (105 of
105), Read 10 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Wednesday, May 31, 2000 02:18 PM
I suppose Shrike's 'misery-fighting dream' was art as opposed to
ML's religion. Somehow they both mediated their dreams through
the newspaper. Something there, I think, but I'm not sure what.
On an utterly unrelated point, I did like, and found significant, the
symmetry between the skull-crushing episodes: the dream involving
the almost-heroic sacrifice of the lamb and the rather pathetic real
incident, involving an unfortunate frog.
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (106 of
107), Read 33 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, May 31, 2000 04:17 PM
"Miss Lonelyhearts found himself developing an almost insane
sensitiveness to order. Everything had to form a pattern..."
I wonder if, perhaps, this entire book is a study of
Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder. perhaps ML is a victim after all.
What a pathetic joke it would be, for someone with OCD, to have
to deal daily with the chaos and disorder of others.
Beej
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (107 of
107), Read 29 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Wednesday, May 31, 2000 05:57 PM
I just finished this one last night. West makes Kafka look cheerful.
Ruth, I will definitely agree with you about ML. He repulsed me too,
and I think part of the problem is that West never lets us see him
before he has degenerated into an almost psychotic case. Wasn't
there a time when Christ meant something to him? Didn't he make a
sincere effort to help his readers at first? Something is missing in
this story. Or was I the only one who felt that?
Except for Betty, almost everyone in this book has a cruel streak. I
would have found the story more disturbing if the author had
allowed me to sympathize with any of the characters or at least
understand them better.
I think ML's boss represents the devil. Who else could be that
heartless?
Ann
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (108 of 111),
Read 16 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 01, 2000 06:50 PM
David: I like your analogy--ML as unwitting Devil. Very interesting.
Quite frankly, I get the distinct feeling we are getting nowhere with this
novel. Everybody (including moi) is advancing ideas but nothing is really
connecting. The work is as much of an enigma here at Post 108 as it
was at Post 1.
Maybe we should have done Day of the Locusts instead.
Dan
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (109 of 111),
Read 17 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Thursday, June 01, 2000 09:07 PM
I agree. Let's give up on it, and do Day of the Locust.
Steve
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (110 of 111),
Read 16 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 01, 2000 09:53 PM
Now, wait a minute! Some of us still want to gnaw around on this
literary bone for a while.
I haven't had much time to write , but have been thinking about it and
rereading parts of it since Saturday. My initial reactions have been
similar to Ann's. I wanted to know who this guy was before we come
into the story. Immediately, we find someone who is in this utter panic
and it's hard to figure out where this all came from. As I read back
through the religious references, it occurred to me that the central
theme of this story may be simply a crisis of faith. What do you do
when you're a Baptist minister's son, have built all you believe on that
bedrock (here we go with stones again...) and it begins to erode? After
reading Mrs. Doyle's letter, "If he could only believe in Christ, then
adultery would be a sin, then everything would be simple and the
letters would be easy to answer again." What happens when
everything's not simple anymore? ML seems to try a bit of everything in
response, but in this panic of changing attitudes like clothing.
Barb
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (111 of 111),
Read 19 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 01, 2000 09:33 PM
Dan raises an interesting point, though it's one I disagree with entirely,
so let me take a crack at it:
It's intruiging that Paradise Lost looms so large on the CC horizon. In
that work, as in ML, the 'satanic' figure has the better mind, better
thoughts, and the better words. In PL, as in ML, the reader is taken on
an up close and personal tour of the tragic waste of inner gifts, painful
to read and painful to contemplate.
I suspect, though, that we'll be a little more comfortable with PL,
because there are things to research, references to track, and religious
dogmas that run like scaffolding around the entire poem.
With ML we're not so lucky. A few sketchy bio's, some shadowy
historical influences, and some punned names that let us guess at the
parodical Christianity of it... these are the scraps we've been thrown.
Novels, however, are not radar blips to be identified and dispensed
with. The art of ML is not perhaps primarily one of 'meanings', the art of
ML may be in its effect on the reader (and West?) and the magnificent
verbal pyrotechnics it fires off. At one point in his play, Hamlet is
enraged by the assumption that one can easily 'pluck the heart of (his)
mystery.' ML IS enigmatic, deeply so, and I can only speak for myself in
saying I'm glad the heart of West's mysterious book is so difficult to
find, let alone pluck out. ML himself is dangerous and endangered, but
despite Shrike's assaults, the mind-corroding letters, Betty's
misunderstood love, and all the things that hem ML in, it's what has lain
dormant in ML all along that actually kills him. I find it grimly hopeful, at
the very least, that West can say along with Milton: 'The mind is its
own place, and can make a Heaven of Hell, or a Hell of Heaven.'
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (112 of 117),
Read 31 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Friday, June 02, 2000 01:15 AM
To say that Miss Lonely Hearts is not a character novel(ette) is to put
it mildly, and frankly, I'm amazed at the energy that is being invested
trying to make it into one. My recommendation on this one: think about
it less, feel it more.
For example, West doesn't have characters. He has slogans with lines.
He has polemics with suspenders. He even has revolutionary rhetoric
with argyll socks. But characters? He ain't got none. And of all the
characters that he ain't got, he ain't got Miss Lonely Hearts the most.
The real character here is West himself: the passionate, talented young
Jewish writer, throwing out these absurd, outlandish fairy tales, in an
age of towering dictators, violent political passions, and heart-breaking
economic and human suffering.
To me, West's writing falls squarely between the Lost Generation of the
'20's and the Beats of the '50's, and of the two bookends, he lies closer
to the Beats, by far. His grotesque, absurdist work seems to me to be a
clear precursor of the hipper, looser, but just as edgy prose of Kerouac,
Burroughs as Ruth pointed out, and ultimately such master black comics
as Heller and Vonnegut.
In the end, I come to the conclusion that this is less a book, much less
a novel, than it is a tract or pamphlet, albeit one from West's heart,
written with incredible pitch and intensity, and that seeks to confront
the limits of the human condition with thinly veiled comic hysteria.
Like a bird battering itself against the bars of its cage, the book and its
driving ethos, in the end, collapses back on itself in confused and
apparent failure. But the thing itself is beautiful and the attempt
magnificent.
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (113 of 117),
Read 23 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Friday, June 02, 2000 07:30 AM
Dick: Beautiful post, if I may say.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (114 of 117),
Read 24 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Friday, June 02, 2000 08:39 AM
Jesus, I'm proud to know you, Dick!
Steve
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (115 of 117),
Read 23 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Friday, June 02, 2000 10:18 AM
George,
This was a good book to nominate for discussion. Although I am
attracted to books with a more linear construction, the more ambiguous
ones are certainly much more thought provoking and fun to discuss.
That said, I did not find this book entirely satisfactory. Dick, in his
excellent post, advised:
My recommendation on this one: think about it less,feel it more.
My point is that the lack of character development made it difficult for
me to understand, much less feel the rage and despair ML was
projecting.
I also think that Barb is right that this novella revolved around a crisis in
faith. Why else were there so many references to Christ? But to
undergo a crisis of faith, ML had to have faith to begin with. West
wants us to accept that as a given, without explaining the nature of his
original beliefs or attachment to religion. That makes his anger and
desperation much harder to believe.
Do you think West's failure to develop ML's relationship with Christianity
stems from the fact that he was not a Christian himself?
I think maybe the reaction to this book depends on the degree to which
it taps into ideas and feelings the reader himself has experienced on
some level. Comparisons between Miss Lonelyheart and Raskolnikov
have been made in the discussion. You could make a good case that
both characters are crazy. However, there is something about
Raskolnikov's endless ramblings that are much easier for me to identify
with than ML's rants. Others probably feel the same about ML. (Which is
not to imply that any of us is crazy -- honest)
By all means I hope we do discuss The Day of the Locusts. I own this
book and I hate to let half of it go to waste.
Ann
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (116 of 117),
Read 27 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Friday, June 02, 2000 10:26 AM
Brilliant analysis, Dick.
But am I crazy? I don't see this as a crisis of faith at all. I saw it as
satyric. Look at the mess the world is in. Look at the wounded people.
Look at the other wounded people wounding the wounded people. Look
at religion not offering any refuge or help, and even Christ is wounded
for no reason.
Ruth
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (117 of 117),
Read 17 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, June 02, 2000 11:59 AM
Dick and George: Fascinating posts, of course. But the enigmatic Miss
Lonelyhearts is at the heart of this novel and as readers we must
attempt to understand the force and ideas driving ML towards a steep
cliff of despair.
I'll offer this suggestion: Jack Maggs owed its true meaning to a careful
reading of Great Expectations. The Hours owed its meaning to Mrs.
Dalloway. Well, people: Let's 'fess up--Miss Lonelyhearts owes its
meaning to Dostoyevsky's The Brothers Karamazov. I say this because
the themes of both works are very similar and also because that's the
literary work ML is tackling in the course of this novel.
I know this reason was not accepted with open arms, but I'll say it
again: The key for this work is Dostoyevsky. It is a response, an
elaboration, a variation on Dostoyevsky's thoughts. I don't think the
Dostoyevsky references are mere filler or fodder--they point.
The dream sequences are Dostoyevskian, the characters are similar to
the rhetorically booted characters that march through Dostoyevsky's
world. Here is Dostoyevsky presaging our perplexity at West's creation:
"Let me tell you novice, that the absurd is only too necessary on
earth. The world stands on absurdities, and perhaps nothing would
have come to pass in it without them. We know what we know!"
"What do you know?"
"I understand nothing," Ivan went on. "I don't want to understand
anything now. I want to stick to the fact. I made up my mind long ago
not to understand. If I try to understand anything, I shall be false to
the fact and I have determined to stick to the fact."
Dan
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (118 of
138), Read 52 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Friday, June 02, 2000 03:51 PM
Dick, Ann, Dan, et al,
Great posts!
This is where my love of this book will make it difficult for me though.
I can't see this book as the story of a crisis of faith. Let's take a
prototypical story of that kind, the life of St. Augustine. Young man
has doubts, lives dissolutely, comes to know and speak to God, and
goes on to lead others to salvation. Let's take ML: young man has no
doubts about Christ, but plenty of doubts about humanity. He lives
dissolutely, comes to speak to God, and goes on to destroy himself
and possibly the first person his new mission tells him to save. So if
it's not a crisis of faith, what IS it? A crisis of self and society. Why
is ML enraged? Maybe we've become too de-sensitized to see it, but
let's set it in modern terms. You get a job on The Springer Show,
looking at it as a trashy joke you must endure to move up the
entertainment ladder... but the joke is on you, because the people
you laugh at on t.v. are real, and in a great deal of pain, with no
possible escape from their own lives. Day in, day out, you must
witness one-on-one the death-throes of their relationships and their
inner selves. They look to you for help, for confirmation that things
can turn around, and you mouth pep-talks at them knowing all the
while they are doomed. Even worse, you notice that the network
execs, the wealthy producers, the mobbing fans, and the star himself
1). don't care, 2). are feeding off their pain 3). are afflicted with the
exact same malaise as the poor suckers who come on the show...
and don't even realize it. Do you not begin to be enraged?
Now you have a choice: walk away or try to help. But what if you
find you have the impulse to help but aren't sure how? You start to
develop alternatives... but in steps a reverse-mentor, someone too
brilliant to ignore, someone with whom you feel secret affinities,
someone whose words dazzlingly dehumanize everyone and make you
take an unblinking look at the darkest corners of yourself. Not to
worry, though, if your dark corners are empty of demons...
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (119 of
138), Read 54 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Friday, June 02, 2000 04:28 PM
George: My dark corners are by no means free of demons, and your
great analogy and post has just sent a chill through every last one of
the little devils.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (120 of
138), Read 55 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Friday, June 02, 2000 05:36 PM
Thank you all for the kind comments; I was all liquored up last night
when I wrote it, so it was a little more passionate than usual. If only
my wife praised my performance under the same conditions.
Anyway, I agree very much with George's comment regarding the
book not dealing with a crisis of faith, so much as an antic lashing
out at political and moral injustice. If anything, West mocks faith in
this book rather than questions it.
It is interesting, though, to consider what makes this book appeal to
some of us and not much or not at all to others. I suspect one of the
things that is off-putting to many readers is the almost sophomoric
humor and excess that West brings to the story. For most people, I
think, a little of that sort of thing goes a long way. Unfortunately for
me, I'm pretty much a permanent sophomore, so it appeals mightily.
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (121 of
138), Read 53 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Friday, June 02, 2000 06:19 PM
I have been following the subject, George, particularly your great
contributions. I have refrained from laying out the reasons why I
have such a strong reaction to this novel because they are so
intensely personal. However, your last note has pushed me over the
brink, and I will explain for what it’s worth.
I make my living by inhabiting a Jerry Springer Show. While I have
represented insurance companies, banks, and other institutions, for
the most part I have spent years representing people “off the
streets.” Occasionally--rarely--one comes in with a nice neat law
school problem. As a rule, however, they come in with a bewildering
array of problems only some of which are legal. Moreover, this
bewildering array of problems is often the result of the person’s own
diligent efforts devoted to accumulating them over many years. Some
of their situations are blackly comical. Still, they want to know what
to do. They want the problems solved now. A few of them, I can
solve. A few of them, I can abate a bit. The rest of them are so
intractable there is no solution.
If one were to do this day in and day out with no break for a
significant period of time, one would have no problem understanding
Miss Lonelyhearts. When I get to the saturation point, I have to work
very hard to control my frustration, outrage, and anger with the very
people who have come to me for help. Some of them disgust me.
Some are clearly mentally whacked.
It affects my own state of mind. I get depressed. It is very difficult
to “leave those things at the office,” as the easy advice goes. It can
drive you up the wall. And certainly, if one's grasp on religion was
tenuous at the outset, this all will probably cook it, if you will pardon
the mixed metaphor. Maybe I am not perfectly mentally stable
myself, but I can assure you that I am not alone in this within my
profession. It's my theory that this is why there are so many drunk
lawyers.
As I said, for what it’s worth.
Steve
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (122 of
138), Read 47 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Jean Keating (jbkeating@home.com)
Date:
Friday, June 02, 2000 07:01 PM
Steve,
My son is a public defender and he has expressed many of the same
opinions you just stated. Are you, by chance, a public defender?
Jean K.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (123 of
138), Read 55 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Friday, June 02, 2000 07:04 PM
No, Jean, but I drink beer with the public defenders here. They are of
a mind with your son, and they are at the saturation point all the
time. Frankly, I don't know how they do it.
Steve
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (124 of
138), Read 52 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Friday, June 02, 2000 08:06 PM
George--brilliant analogy to Jerry Springer. Viewed in that light, ML
makes a lot more sense.
Dan, I like your comparison to Dostoevsky and the Brothers K.
However, Dostoevsky always leaves us some hope, even if his doubts
ring more true to me than his hunger for faith. ML, on the other hand,
is one long scream of pain.
Steve, my 4 years as a case worker for the welfare department (in a
more distant life time, thank God) left me with some understanding of
your predicament.
Ann
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (125 of
138), Read 50 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Susan Pardue (ezrabird@aol.com)
Date:
Friday, June 02, 2000 08:28 PM
Dan,
I'm with you all the way. Miss Lonelyhearts has its genesis in The
Brothers Karamazov, and is written in response to it. West has
reworked the story, allowing Ivan to retain his sanity and emerge the
victor over the religious and good Alyosha (No "hurrah for
Karamazov!" exclaimed at the end of this version).
West is certainly not the first to have thought Ivan's rebellion against
God, his refusal to accept the world as God made it, made a more
compelling argument than Zosima and Alyosha's message of active
love--I've heard that Dostoevsky himself worried he wasn't
successful in refuting Ivan's case. What has West done in the novel
but show the flipside to Zosima's 25-minute walk and talk among the
downtrodden, dispensing advice and solace with a hundred percent
accuracy rate. Zosima is regarded as a saint in life, but once he's
dead popular opinion changes as he begins to immediately stink. West
doesn't wait until after death to bring on the odor--Miss
Lonelyheart's Zosima-inspired advice and efforts to help the Doyles
stinks right off the bat.
Dostoevsky collected newspaper accounts of cruelties inflicted upon
children and gave them to Ivan to use in his rebellion against a world
that permits such to take place. Such accounts are sent to Miss
Lonelyhearts, who tries to become Christ rather than question why
such cruelties occur. Like Alyosha, he wants to take on the suffering
of the world, but West knows that's absurd. In such a world you
cannot be a Miss Lonelyhearts and keep your sanity--Shrikes are the
only ones that will make it through intact.
Susan
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (126 of
138), Read 50 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ernest Belden (drernest@pacbell.net)
Date:
Friday, June 02, 2000 10:51 PM
Has any of you had the impulse to ask the contemporary Miss
Lonelyhearts what they think about West's book. There is Abby and
her sister plus many others. I am tempted to do that.
The more I think about this book, the more I agree with all those who
suspected a crisis and break down in rationality in ML and probably in
Mr. West as well.
What do you people think of those who give advise? The one's I read
in the daily paper are pretty good. As for us practicing or retired
psychologist it's "No Way" Most of the various school tell you not to
give advise. Freud was opposed to giving advise, but in reality
constantly did so. Rogers told his students to "Rephrase" what the
patient has been saying. But last but least has any of you listened to
the most prominent advise giver? It's Dr. Laura who often gives
advise before the client has finished his or her story. Would Dr. Laura
make a fine ML?
I am ending with this profound question,
Ernie
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (127 of
138), Read 46 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Robert Armstrong (rla@nac.net)
Date:
Saturday, June 03, 2000 12:13 AM
When I was a 19 year old college student I worked on weekends at
WFME, Newark, NJ on the graveyard shift: Midnight to 8AM. It was all
pre-recorded tapes of soothing gospel music. Besides keeping the
tapes rolling I announced the news three times a night and hosted
Prayertime on Saturday mornings: let us pray for so and so who has
cancer and needs an apartment, while hymns played in the
background sort of thing. People would call me up, too, with terrible
problems asking for spiritual advise. Dottie was my regular caller and
she even came to visit me once (I'm not talking about our Dottie.)
She was handicapped with one usable arm. Her boss had an arm
amputated in the war and his wife was a thalidamide victim born
without arms. They travelled together to Florida and between the
three of them they had two arms.
The whole thing was a bit much. I can understand the black humor in
it and the need for mental stability while dealing with it. There are
some undercurrents that can drag you out to sea.
I have two friends who are emergency room physicians, one of whom
is particularly affected by the horrendous situations that occur on a
nightly basis. He is unable to keep it from getting to him. Most likely
he will be changing professions within the next several years which
has been his longstanding plan.
Poor Miss Lonelyhearts wasn't up to the job. He could neither be the
thick skinned opportunist that Shrike was nor the wise and sensitive
columnist that he was purporting to be.
Dr. Laura seems to be more like Shrike than Miss Lonelyhearts. She is
in control of her airtime. She scoops out just enough material from
each advisee to engage the listener. She tirelessly worships at the
alter of ratings. She is the highest paid shrinkoid in the history of the
world.
Robt
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (128 of
138), Read 34 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Saturday, June 03, 2000 08:06 AM
Well, all of you have written brilliant posts. I wrote this little bit
before the last 20 posts, so it's way behind. I got the book late, (I
have a copy somewhere, I know it, but had to resort to getting it
from the library).
____
Miss Lonelyhearts’ madness seems very much like Roskolnikov’s, as
noted previously. In R’s case, the madness was caused by guilt of
the murder he committed and an overactive navel-searching gene.
My question is, what is causing ML’s guilt? Assuming that’s what it is,
of course. Well, one cause could be that he just can’t solve all those
problems. But it seems more than that to me. I think he has a huge
child-like ego, and in the manner of a child thinking he caused his
parents’ divorce, ML somehow feels responsible for all the problems in
the letters. Hey, they weren’t there before!
Another thought. There’s this in the Miss Lonelyhearts and the
Lamb section:
"For him, Christ was the most natural of excitements. Fixing his eyes
on the image that hung on the wall, he began to chant: ‘Christ,
Christ, Jesus Christ. Christ, Christ, Jesus Christ.’ But the moment the
snake started to uncoil in his brain, he became frightened and closed
his eyes." Now what is the snake? Temptation? Temptation to what?
Become overcome with religious fervor? Become Jesus? What a bunch
of mixed up religious metaphors. It seems ML has got temptation to
do something he’s scared to do and swooning over Christ all mixed
up. No wonder he’s a basket case. He’s really afraid to take the
plunge and become immersed in those seductive feelings of Christlike
goodness.
Sherry
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (129 of
138), Read 41 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Saturday, June 03, 2000 08:24 AM
Ann and Robert, I overstated the case in saying that kind of work
makes Miss Lonelyhearts easy to understand. Rather, I should have
said that doing such work gives one a head start on understanding
the book. Regardless of my joining with Dan in his earlier interjection
of frustration, this discussion is moving me even closer. Now, all I
have to do is get this Jesus Christ thing down and reread The
Brothers Karamazov.
Steve
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (130 of
138), Read 42 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Saturday, June 03, 2000 09:10 AM
I just want to thank everyone- I'm wondering to myself how rare it is
to participate in an exchange that is simultaneously honest,
receptive, and challenging... not an everyday phenomenon.
Steve- A special thanks to you... from the beginning of this thread
you've understood the threat implicit in really reading this book, and
your latest posts have helped me understand a little more why my
own approach to ML whiplashes back and forth so unpredictably. The
contrast between your 'stay with it...to the bitter end' stance and
the way you exponentially heightened Dan's hint that this discussion
should move on to The Day of the Locust mirrors exactly my
ambivalence about ML. Valery said that people can read well only
from personal motivation, whether it be out of love or hatred of the
author, or to mentally prove that author right or wrong. What
happens when a reader can't tell at any given moment whether he or
she thinks the book at hand is brutally accurate or dead wrong...or
both? Too often, that is the situation I find myself in when
confronting ML. It does help, however, to know I'm not the only one
who takes such things personally.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (131 of
138), Read 43 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Saturday, June 03, 2000 09:19 AM
Robt & All: Speaking of the helping professions... About three years
ago, after a devastating surprise divorce, when I was in the depths
of despondency and clinical depression and Prozac had no more
effect than after-dinner mints, I took the advice of a psychologist
friend (not Ernie {G})and sought out a local Divorce Recovery
Support Group.
The first session immediately proved to me that “misery loves
company” is a myth. To echo Steve’s remarks about clients, divorce
was merely the tip of the iceberg of these people’s problems and
pain. The thing was organized on somewhat an AA model, with
cheery group leaders sharing war stories, listening sympathetically,
and bucking us up, and by the end of the session there was so much
unalleviated misery in that room that I literally felt I was drowning in
it.
The final event of the night (this group met in the rec center of a
Catholic church, and for some bizarre reason we sat in the middle of
a basketball court, which as you can imagine made for very soothing
lighting and acoustics) was for us all to stand and join hands in a
“prayer circle.” In a daze I felt for the persons’ hands on either side
of me, connected with one, and with the other grasped a cold iron
hook.
For the past 25 years my best clients have been medical rehab
facilities, so I feel totally comfortable around people with the most
severe physical disabilities, but that night in my weakened state I felt
like a character of Kafka’s. I hid my surprise (I think), gently
readjusted my grip to the man’s forearm instead, and prayed. Dear
God, get me out of here.
The prayer done, I exchanged hugs and goodbyes with the group,
and once I cleared the door I ran as if for my life and never looked
back. The next morning I logged onto CR after a several-month
absence, and things have been looking up ever since.
>>Dale in Ala., more thankful for all you guys than you know
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (132 of
138), Read 28 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Saturday, June 03, 2000 10:08 AM
Ernie, I don't think it is going to be of much help to ask these things
of the Dear Abby's of the world. Anybody who could do that day in
and day out for years and retain her sanity is really sick! Anyway,
whenever she is confronted with an intractable problem, she never
fails to cop out with, "You need to seek professional counseling!"
So that brings us to Dr. Laura. In the chapter called "Miss
Lonelyhearts in the Dismal Swamp," there is this great paragraph
wherein ML describes for Betty eloquently and in a nutshell what has
happened to him. (Oh, hell! I will just transcribe it here.)
Perhaps I can make you understand. Let's start from the beginning.
A man is hired to give advice to the readers of a newspaper. The job
is a circulation stunt and the whole staff considers it a joke. He
welcomes the job, for it might lead to a gossip column, and anyway
he's tired of being a leg man. He too considers the job a joke, but
after several months at it, the joke begins to escape him. He sees
that the majority of the letters are profoundly humble pleas for
moral and spiritual advice, that they are inarticulate expressions of
genuine suffering. He also discovers that his correspondents take
him seriously. For the first time in his life, he is forced to examine
the values by which he lives. This examination shows him that he is
the victim of the joke and not its perpetrator.
I strongly suspect that Dr. Laura took her broadcasting job because
she, too, was tired of being a leg man. However, I also strongly
suspect that she has yet to examine the values by which she lives.
She still thinks she is the perpetrator of the joke.
Steve
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (133 of
138), Read 30 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Saturday, June 03, 2000 10:35 AM
Ernie,
Interesting observations about ML and current advice givers. The
letters to Ann Landers and her sister Abby are pretty tame in
comparison to those in this story, aren't they?
Actually, it is hard for me to imagine a real newspaper publishing such
painful letters. Readers like advice columns because they make them
feel better off than the poor sucker writing the letter and because
the problems are so easily resolved with a snappy answer or even a
put down. The last thing they want is to be left with a persistent
impression of undeserved pain and hopelessness. Dale, you've been in
the newspaper business. What do you think?
Robt and Dale, your stories remind me how difficult it is for most of us
to deal with physical deformities and others' suffering. (Hearing about
somebody else's pain never did a bit to alleviate mine either, Dale,
although I do remember feeling relieved a time or two that at least I
was not that crazy).
In ML, helplessness sometimes enrages the main character. Writing of
his relationship with Betty, West says: "She was like a kitten whose
soft helplessness makes one ache to hurt it". Later, ML remembers
how he had accidentally stepped on a frog. "Its spilled guts had filled
him with pity, but when its suffering had become real to his senses,
his pity had turned to rage and he had beaten it frantically until it
was dead." This is followed almost immediately by a description of
how he almost twists an old man's arm off.
What is this connection between pity and cruelty?
Also, I am curious to know how many of you found humor in this
story. Dick mentioned a couple of times that he thought it was
funny. I don't do well with so-called black humor, so I am not a good
judge. The one sentence that did make me laugh was Shrike
describing his wife:
"She was a virgin when I married her and has been fighting ever
since to remain one."
Ann
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (134 of
138), Read 28 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Saturday, June 03, 2000 10:39 AM
Dale, I knew there was a reason I decided to stop going to that
support group for Alzheimer's caregivers.
Ruth
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (135 of
138), Read 27 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Saturday, June 03, 2000 11:34 AM
Susan and Dan, lest my note above give the impression that I am
making merry with your posts about Dostoevski's book, I wish to say
that I thought your observations brilliant.
Susan, although it demanded a little effort from the reader, your
analysis of the Father Zossima segment in relation to this book was
very neat indeed.
Do you recall the long section in that book wherein Christ is brought
in front of The Grand Inquisitor? I am very close to having built up
the energy to reread that section of The Brothers Karamazov,
thanks (or no thanks) to you both. If indeed ML is a response to that
book, then I think Shrike may be Miss Lonelyhearts' Grand Inquisitor. I
am a little rusty on Dostoevski's book, but if my recollection serves
me correctly, I think The Grand Inquisitor was saying some of the
same things Shrike is saying here.
Steve
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (136 of
138), Read 22 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Saturday, June 03, 2000 12:01 PM
Ann, I would like to take a crack at your question about the
connection between pity and cruelty in the context of this book.
If one simply encounters a person with severe problems of any
sort--physical deformity, mental anguish, chronic victimization, etc.,
one probably feels simple pity. One is still pretty safe from them.
However, when you are placed in a context where these people are
turning to you, confiding in you, and placing their hopes in you to tell
them what to do--to solve their problems--then you yourself are in
danger for the simple reason that in the instant you undertake to
make the attempt, their problems in a very real sense become yours.
Then when you become overloaded (or reach the saturation point, as
I am fond of saying), you start to resent or even hate these people
for having burdened you with all this--for having done this to you.
Obviously, ML had completely lost it for this very reason. This is the
explanation for conduct such as beating hell out of Mrs. Doyle.
Now as I understand it, Christ took all of our sins upon himself and
accepted all of our problems as his own. He accomplished this with
no resentment and resulting cruelty but rather with perfect love,
although he did whine about it just a little bit on the cross. However,
as I also understand it, he was divine. Any human being who takes
even a small fraction of human suffering as his own is in for trouble.
Again, I think this book proposes an answer for human beings, and
that is "the rock" that ML incorporates inside himself toward the end.
One must have an unfeeling place within one's self that these people
can't get to. Nobody else agrees with me on this, but I do still
strongly feel that ML was getting it together toward the end of the
book with his "rock" device. The irony is that he is nonetheless killed
as a consequence of his earlier breakdown.
By the way, I too find the book hilarious, but I have not yet gotten
up enough spine to say why publicly.
Steve
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (137 of
138), Read 11 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Saturday, June 03, 2000 12:55 PM
Percy Bysshe Shelley asked this question in his great poem 'The
Triumph of Life':
'Why did God make good and the means of good irreconcilable?'
Much as I'd like to believe the 'rock' is a symbol of ML's inner
recovery-in-progress, it can't possibly be. All the references to
rock/stone in ML are menacing without exception. ML himself, for all
his faults, IS a perceptive man, intuiting much more of what occurs
around him than anyone else in the book besides Shrike. That
perceptiveness of ML's holds strong until the rock materializes. Then
he lets a letter from Doyle drop from his hand unread. ML's entire
(and dubious) glory consists of being the one to READ those letters
and feel their pain. Much, much worse is ML's thought that God has
sent Doyle to him at the end to receive a miracle that 'proves (ML's)
conversion.'
Sadly, ML's 'miracle' will not be just for Doyle... it is now mostly about
ML himself. The rock, the fever, the obviously false voice of God,
these are all of a piece, and they are all signs of ML's degeneration. I
read West's message like this: one cannot withdraw from selective
segments of life. One must stay open to the cries for help AND to the
words of Shrike and what he represents. There is no way to withdraw
to a safe island within to avoid Shrike's rhetoric and only come out
when the Doyle's and the Betty's drop by.
If there's one thing I know for sure about West it is this: to him
nothing is perfect. The fact that the rock is portrayed as perfect is
surely an indictment of it.
West himself worked at a hotel- his friends say that he used much
energy and cunning to allow people who had nowhere else to go to
covertly get rooms without paying. Many talented artists found
shelter under West's wing (D. Hammett himself once availed himself
of West's help I believe). West would never portray a human
ascension in terms of withdrawal or in terms of the buffered coldness
of stone and mean it as anything but a terrifying commentary on how
much battering a human can take before he becomes inhuman...
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (138 of
138), Read 7 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Saturday, June 03, 2000 01:44 PM
George: Your post comparing ML's dilemma to a job with the Springer
show was brilliant and elucidating, especially how it brought forth a
very fascinating discussion of the infamous Dr. Laura.
Susan: Thank you so much for clarifying the Dostoyevsky-West
connection I could only perceive through the corner of my eye. Now
that Steve has brought forth a possible relationship between Shrike
and The Grand Inquisitor, the connection may even be stronger than
I originally thought. I'll be re-reading that section of Brother
Karamazov this week.
Ann: Maybe I'm just pessimistic, but I never get this affirmation of
"hope" with Dostoyevsky. His writings are too steeped in pain,
suffering, and futility to ever seem "hopeful." Sure the characters
may be happy at the end, but we know that's only because the next
page of their miserable lives is was not written.
Besides, here at Post 138, I'm beginning to get a firm grip on the
fascinating possibilities of this tiny novel. To think I almost dismissed
it as peripheral and irrelevant. My special thanks for everyone here
who helped elucidate this work.
"And always so, all our lives hand in hand (except for Dale, who
accidentally grasps a hook)! Hurrah for CR!"
Dan
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (139 of
146), Read 56 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Saturday, June 03, 2000 04:40 PM
All: I just realized that the note I posted above on my support-group
scenario--as well as some of the situations in ML--is similar to one
theme in the Lorrie Moore story we read a few weeks ago, i.e. her
dealings with the other parents in the children’s cancer ward.
Apparently there’s a great divide between support-group-joiners and
non-’s. I got the sense that her husband was feeling so helpless he
would have sought the other parents’ support, but she put the kibosh
on that idea before they were even out the hospital door.
Also, on the topic of the pity/cruelty connection, I'm reminded of an
old Yiddish proverb: "If you see a blind man, kick him. Why should you
be kinder than God?"
I didn't make that up, but I wish I had. Maybe ML could have found
some comfort in it.{G}
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (140 of
146), Read 53 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Saturday, June 03, 2000 04:53 PM
Ann: Important point, I think, that letters as dark as the ones ML
received would not have appeared in a real newspaper. In my
newspaper experience, most readers wanted two main
things...happy, uplifting endings, and/or to feel superior to people
who have done really klutzy things.
(Of course, there was also the lady who proudly informed me she
only bought my paper for the grocery specials, and who made it a
point to dispose of the entire news-and-editorial section in our front
office wastebasket each Wednesday morning, preferably while one of
us watched.)
What uplifting-and-superior says about the terrifying territory of
tabloid/trash TV I'm not really sure, unless it's that if a bleak story is
outlandish enough, superior can triumph over uplifting, at least with a
large part of the audience.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (141 of
146), Read 31 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Sunday, June 04, 2000 07:00 AM
Dan, don't waste your time on the Grand Inquisitor thing. It is coming
back slowly to me now. As I recall, the Grand Inquisitor was berating
Christ because he was such a damned inconvenience to the Church.
Maybe there is some connection with Shrike, but I don't think so.
Steve
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (142 of
146), Read 36 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, June 04, 2000 08:39 AM
Steve: I never find reading Dostoyevsky a "waste of time." In fact,
this is just the flimsy kind of excuse I need to justify rereading one of
his works to "investigate."
Dan
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (143 of
146), Read 29 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, June 04, 2000 02:01 PM
Dan,
Okay, that does it. I'm going to nominate the Brothers Karamazov for
next year's reading list. It's been 25 years since I read it the first
time and I still think it is one of the great classics of Western
literature.
Dostoevsky isn't overly popular here, but the discussion on this one
could be phenomenal.
Ann
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (144 of
146), Read 32 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Sunday, June 04, 2000 02:22 PM
Ah, give it up, Ann. Nobody's gonna vote for some long, boring
Russian book.
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (145 of
146), Read 32 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, June 04, 2000 02:45 PM
Well, they did vote for Middlemarch, so there's hope.
Ann
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (146 of
146), Read 35 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, June 04, 2000 02:52 PM
Granted--even I gave up on Brothers Karamazov two or three times
before slugging it out to the final "hurrah." But that doesn't mean I
wouldn't vote for it in a lineup. I thought Crime and Punishment was
an excellent choice yielding excellent posts.
And what are you saying about Middlemarch, Dick? It's British, so
that makes it ever so superior to (sniff) Cossack fiction. Besides,
that's my beach book this summer. I'm going to stretch next to the
kiddie pool reading Middlemarch and re-reading Paradise Lost,
another British tome.
Whooo boy--one hot summer.
Dan
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (147 of
150), Read 26 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ernest Belden (drernest@pacbell.net)
Date:
Monday, June 05, 2000 10:55 PM
Ann,
You have my vote for the Brothers K. for next year. Who knows I
may read it during the summer if I am stranded someplace where
there is very little to do.
It always amazes me how much these discussions we have
contribute to make reading meaningful. This may explain why so
many of us remain loyal to our beloved CC and CR.
Ernie
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (148 of
150), Read 26 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, June 06, 2000 07:17 AM
A stray thought. The last words we hear from Shrike in the book are
a mocking 'biography' of ML, and I can't believe I never caught the
'Tower of Babel' reference in them 'til now. He says ML is 'struggling
valiantly to realize a high ideal, his course shaped by a proud aim.'
Height and pride are the clues, as Shrike goes on to paint a picture
of a 'cold and scornful' world heaping obstacles in ML's path... ML
turns these obstacles into a ladder to ascend to his goal, even
though a thunderous voice cries 'Halt!' 'Higher, even higher, mount'
thinks ML as he climbs to an airless height and his lungs fill with fire.
A tower of Babel of one's own mistakes... a frightening thought.
Worse still, Shrike's 'prophecy' is fulfilled, as Ml tumbles from his apex
(the stairs) and is unable to understand what anyone says to him
anymore... pragmatically, his language has been changed,
communication at the end of the book progressively disintegrates as
terribly as it did at that good 'ol Tower so long ago... This is a
masterpiece of imagery on Shrike's part, hinting that his reversals of
ML are complete: ML is climbing alright, but he's ascending to Hell.
And even though ML is a 'rain-washed star', no matter how you try
to purify a star, you still end up a Lucifer.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (149 of
150), Read 22 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Robert Armstrong (rla@nac.net)
Date:
Tuesday, June 06, 2000 10:43 AM
George, your Tower of Babel observation is dead on.
This is an excellent thread and I don't have anything to say that
hasn't already been said. MISS LONELYHEARTS lives up to my high
school English teacher's rabid praise. I agree that it stands toe to
toe with works by Dostoevsky, Kafka and Flannery O'Conner as an
illumination of darkness. I see it as a cynical indictment of fix-it-ism
swathed in shadows and soot, a behind-the-scenes exposé of the
all-loving schtick of Promisegivers. It reminds me of the televanglist
scandals of the 80's, or whenever mere mortals parade as the Wizard
of Oz. There is a pitfall when dealing with great suffering, the
temptation to play poof-and-its-gone in order to to remove the pain
of others because it is too painful to witness. The outreach is not a
lifeline to others but a reaching out for one's own lifeline when the
helper becomes the one in need of help due to his or her own
impotence and sense of futility in the presence of tragedy.
West's writing style is pitch black perfect.
"It had taken all the brutality of July to torture a few green spikes
through the exhausted dirt. What the little park needed, even more
than he did, was a drink. Neither alcohol nor rain would do.
Tomorrow, in his column, he would ask Broken-hearted, Sick-of
-it-all, Desperate, Disilllusioned-with-tubercular-husband and the rest
of his correspondents to come here and water the soil with their
tears. Flowers would then spring up, flowers that smelled of feet."
"Miss Lonelyhearts went home in a taxi. He lived by himself in a room
that was as full of shadows as an old steel engraving. It held a bed,
a table and two chairs. The walls were bare except for an ivory
Christ that hung opposite the foot of the bed. He had removed the
figure from the cross to which it had been fastened and had nailed it
to the wall with large spikes. But the desired effect had not been
obtained. Instead of writhing, the Christ remained calmly decorative."
"The hot water made his body feel good, but his heart remained a
congealed lump of icy fat."
Robt
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (150 of
150), Read 14 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, June 06, 2000 07:38 PM
You were certainly right about this book provoking some of the best
discussion, George. I've seen infinite aspects to this story that I
wouldn't have seen on my own.
I was also glad that someone (George?) mentioned West's efforts to
help his friends which makes me think that cynicism may not have
permeated his thought process as totally as the story might lead one
to believe.
I still keep niggling with my earlier comments concerning a crisis of
faith. I don't think it necessarily is traditional religious faith, but more
the faith that things can be fixed, that there are simple solutions.
The media cultivates the public's need for these "fix-its", as Robt
said, through advice columnists, exploiting ignorance once again.
And, Steve, your comments about the effects of working with people
with a seemingly endless list of life problems were perfect. I've been
there and I suddenly understood ML's mean side completely.
Barb
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (152 of
157), Read 24 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Wednesday, June 07, 2000 03:55 AM
Well I am missing one big party here and am sorry, sorry, sorry but I
DID jump into the fray above and tacked a note -- with a big old
quote from Dan included -- and hope I don't get stoned myself for
saying what I did -- having read the other half of the thread I figure
what I said fits the pattern here -- GREAT discussion going here and
I cannot wait to gather up my J.B. and ML and get down to brass
tacks and then throw Job in and tackle Paradise Lost and anything
else that gets mentioned or voted in here as a result of this one!
Okay -- we can all breath now -- I tell you THIS is what has kept me
here but I am definitely the small fish in the BIG pond around you
guys! Am SO glad that I will soon be back and able to CR more!
Dottie -- wondering how many MORE books she can fit into the
suitcase in July
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (153 of
157), Read 27 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, June 07, 2000 10:17 AM
Robert--
You did say something that hasn't been said... a very perceptive
comment on the helper progressively needing more and more help,
which I think catches West's spirit of reversal-ism.
Barb--
I just can't see where ML has any real hope that anything can be
fixed ('cept the end, where he is obviously beyond lost). I return
again and again to WHY Shrike vanquishes ML? It can't be a duel of
faith, because ML's faith is at least greater than S's. It must be a
duel of artistic skill: ML could fight back if he could find his own
voice, but he's so overawed by the force of Shrike's sermons that he
is silenced-in-advance. I'm still groping towards my idea that West
values LANGUAGE over everything, and is grappling with the very
dark implications of the fact that skill with words outweighs the truth
words can carry within. Compare the ineptitude of the letters ML
receives to any one of Shrike's speeches and reflect on the fact that
the most visible letter writer (Doyle) and the only adversary S faces
(ML) go down to a catastrophic finish... while the polished Shrike
continues on, the last words of his being 'and so...' (he will never
stop) and I think you will see the disturbing thing West has revealed
about words with words...
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (154 of
157), Read 23 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Pres Lancaster (plancast@slip.net)
Date:
Wednesday, June 07, 2000 11:27 AM
Great post, GEORGE.
I particularly like:
"the very dark implications of the fact that skill with words
outweighs the truth words can carry within"
Now there is meat to chew on.
Someone can write a nice essay for (you name the publication) on
that subject.
I would like to argue that it certainly appears that way but that the
world of the intellect requires that it not be so. Now for the
supporting facts . . .
Pres, hollering at the base of Mount Rushmore.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (155 of
157), Read 17 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, June 07, 2000 06:57 PM
Allow me to throw a spanner in the works: Is Shrike's verbal assaults
that daunting, that fabulous? Does Shrike really shut ML down with
his verbosity or does ML realize that Shrike is too ignorant to even
understand a rebuttal if one arrived? During both my first and second
reading, I had the impression that while Shrike was verbose, he was
just hot air venting most of the time.
Even the narrator belittles Shrike with the whole "Mrs. Shrike"
episode:
[Shrike says of his wife:] "She's selfish. She's a damned selfish bitch.
She was a virgin when I married her and has been fighting ever
since to remain one. Sleeping with her is like sleeping with a knife in
one's groin."
It was Miss Lonelyhearts' turn to laugh. He put his face close to
Shrike's and laughed as hard as he could.
Shrike tried to ignore him by finishing as though the whole thing
were a joke.
"She claims I raped her. Can you imagine Willie Shrike, wee Willie
Shrike, raping any one? I'm like you, one of the grateful lovers."
Shrike isn't winning over ML here--in fact, ML's laughter is more
stinging to Shrike here than probably anything Shrike ever said to ML.
Then, of course, we have the attempted seduction and/or rape
(depending on your perception) which ends this chapter. And I'll
concede it is somewhat the action of Shrike's words on ML; that is,
"Wee Miss Lonelyhearts couldn't rape anyone either." It illustrates
the situation explained by Mrs. Shrike earlier in the chapter: "[Shrike]
knows that I let them neck me and when I get home all hot and
bothered, why he climbs into my bed and begs for it. The cheap
bastard!"
Notice the final paragraph of this chapter:
[ML] released her. She opened the door and tiptoed in, carrying her
rolled up clothes under her coat. He heard her switch on the light in
the foyer and knew that Shrike had not been behind the door. Then
he heard footsteps and limped behind a projection of the elevator
shaft. The door opened and Shrike looked into the corridor. He had
on only the top of his pajamas.
This reduces Shrike's stature, surely in my mind, immensely. He's
ludicrous sans pants and obviously hoping he'll get laid by his wife
after ML does all of the foreplay. Is this the man that ML feels he
can't beat? Can all of Shrike's overwrought cleverness in speech
make up for this one image in ML's mind?
ML probably meets Shrike's speeches with silence or laughter
because he knows better than to have a mental debate with an
unarmed opponent.
Dan
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (156 of
157), Read 11 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, June 07, 2000 08:35 PM
Dan--
Though I appreciate the devil's advocate approach, your
interpretation runs screaming from West's actual words.
ML on Shrike:
"Why laugh at himself, when Shrike was waiting at the speakeasy to
do a much BETTER job."
"...he (ML) tried to lead his audience in prayer. But no matter how
hard he struggled, his prayer was one Shrike had taught him..."
"When he kissed Shrike's wife, he felt less like a joke. But EVEN
THERE Shrike had beaten him."
"ML did not answer. He was thinking of how Shrike had accelerated
his sickness by teaching him to handle his one escape, Christ, with a
thick gloves of words."
Also, Shrike parodies a wide variety of sacred texts, demonstrating
an incredible knowledge of religious tradition along with his obvious
command of culture (literature, philosophy, etc.,) It escapes me
where ML demonstrates more than even a rudimentary knowledge of
anything (though his instincts are intense and oddly accurate).
Most importantly, though, putting-down Shrike's words is
putting-down the book itself. Critics commonly regard Shrike's
speeches in the 'Dismal Swamp' the summit of all of West's writings,
and, unusually for me, I agree with them.
As for the 'seduction' scene... Ml wants to get laid. He doesn't.
Shrike does. I found Shrike's openness about ML's affair and his
attitude more chilling than ridiculous... he's a sexual vulture who
already considers his wife dead flesh. There is humor, of course, but
the laughs are shadowed by Shrike, and to me his shadow seems to
kill everything it touches.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (157 of
157), Read 10 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, June 07, 2000 08:48 PM
I don't think that anything that Shrike says is that intimidating in and
of itself. But, ML seems ripe to be intimidated by this one person. It
was almost as if Shrike is casting a spell of blight, primarily felt by
ML. He appears to be a symbol of everything that is sick in the world.
Barb
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (158 of
165), Read 29 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 08, 2000 12:38 PM
George: Point taken, but I still feel that you are overemphasizing the
impact of Shrike's words on ML. I never had the sense that ML
"dreaded" Shrike, just that he never really liked the man. Sure Shrike
is intelligent, but if he's so word-crafty and clever then why is he
hanging out at bars trying to torment the MLs of the world?
Shrike is just as pathetic.
Dan
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (159 of
165), Read 30 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 08, 2000 12:59 PM
I gotta weigh in on the side of "Shrike as shrill distraction" in an
otherwise bewildering world. Shrike speaks for cynics of course, but
his strategy is just a way of getting by, and not a solution to the
moral problem ML faces.
On another note: no one's mentioned (unless I forgot, which is
possible) those astonishingly horrific bar conversations among the
drunks and reporters about casual rape and kidnapping. Talk about
problems with women. I've always found those tidbits to be little
snapshots from the Grand Guignol that is apparently perpetually
lurking in West's brain.
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (160 of
165), Read 26 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 08, 2000 02:15 PM
Dick in Alaska writes,
"...little snapshots from the Grand Guignol..."
If someone here doesn't take that gem and run with it, making it the
title of a novel or story collection, I may just beat you to it. Except,
of course, that alongside my TBR pile is an almost-as-big TBW (to be
written) pile. In other words, I'm flexible. Especially because you
can't copyright a title. {G}
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (161 of
165), Read 22 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 08, 2000 05:01 PM
Now that you mention it, Dick, I was personally appalled by the
casual talk of putting uppity women in their place by raping them.
Have we really come that far, baby, or was this shocking even at the
time West wrote it?
Ann
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (162 of
165), Read 17 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 08, 2000 06:09 PM
Ann: I suspect a little of both. It's a disconcerting, for me at least,
to recall (just a figure speech, actually) that the 19th Amendment
was not enacted until 1920 -- only 13 years before this story was
published.
By way of comparison, black men had had the legal right to vote
since 1869 (subject to the usual qualifications of literacy and a
rope-proof neck in some jurisdictions.)
The pecking order was well established, as was reflected in the story
itself, where the 3-day gang rape culminated with a black guy being
allowed to join in at the end.
So, there's the hierarchy: first white men, then black men, and
somewhere down there, white women. And even West's imagination
couldn't get far enough down the social food chain to reach where
black women were residing in those days.
I hope we've come far, I really do.
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (163 of
165), Read 18 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 08, 2000 06:33 PM
We were talking about Shrike's intelligence, which seems
indisputable. It is pathetic that a man with the impromptu verbal
skills Shrike possesses lives the way that he does... but I think that's
astray from West's point. Of course Shrike reveals no answers to
ML's dilemma: Shrike is an American demi-devil, and healing psychic
splits isn't a common satanic practice. I don't know how intimidating
S should be to us (or West), but I can't get the image of an
'inescapable' S leaning down to the squirming ML, talking through the
blankets he's piled around his head, ruthlessly taking away every
life-option ML might ever have considered with 2 brilliant minutes of
speech. ML 'plays dead' in hopes that Shrike's cascade will stop, but
it doesn't. And Shrike plants the most dangerous identification of all
in ML's head by writing a mock letter to Christ on ML's behalf. This
reduction of Christ to a divine counterpart of ML's, 'reading' the
hopeless thoughts of humanity but unable to do anything about it,
this reduction is lethal to ML. It works in 2 ways: ML is secretly
scared of being like the people who write to him, and Shrike dumps a
truckload of salt into the wound of that fear; and Shrike sarcastically
'thanks' Christ for his anticipated 'quick reply', knowing full well that if
Christ does reply to ML it will only be in his mind and will signify the
breaking loose of ML's poisonous insecurities. It takes Iago until Act
IV to destroy Othello's mind... it takes Shrike all of fifty pages to do
the same to ML, and I suppose I do find that heartless economy a bit
intimidating.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (164 of
165), Read 14 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Janet Mego (vsjego@cs.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 08, 2000 08:07 PM
George--
Your points throughout this discussion have been excellent ones. I
thought of Iago working on Othello, too, believe it or not--
(because I think almost every classic writer post Shakespeare is
influenced, consciously or sub--by the Bard)
I also thought of Hamlet in response to Polonius' query "What is it
you read, my Lord?"
--"Words. . .words. . .words. . . "
Altho Shrike is no Polonius and does not strike me as ridiculous or
pretentious, his constant use of words as weapons (and the bird
analogy is pervasive) without real substance is striking, or perhaps I
should say "Shriking."
Janet, agreeing with Steve's earlier point that Shrike is babbling
nonsense at times, but also seeing weird profundity at others. . .
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (165 of
165), Read 14 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 08, 2000 08:30 PM
Thanks Janet. (couldn't agree more about Shakespeare's influence!)
The Iago thing looms particularly in light of this discussion. In a
sense, Iago also speaks nothing but nonsense. It is patently obvious
that Desdemona is faithful, and Othello SHOULD greet all Iago's
statements with disbelief. But he doesn't. Why? Because of the
aesthetic ingenuity Iago uses in adapting his words to Othello's
weaknesses. Now, in that last sentence, substitute Shrike and ML's
names and I think it is equally true. Iago is not there to speak
aphoristic profundities...and neither is Shrike. That doesn't mitigate
the dark splendor that each of them represents...
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (166 of
169), Read 30 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Friday, June 09, 2000 02:42 AM
Really though, I don't think there is any question but that West was
simply lampooning the verbal rapists. I really don't think that was an
important part of this story.
Steve
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (167 of
169), Read 21 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Friday, June 09, 2000 03:49 AM
So the demonstrably most intelligent character in all of West's
fiction, the hunter/destroyer of ML, and one of the most significant
and influential examples of spiritual nihilism in American literature is
unimportant...?! I'm baffled by this conclusion.
Believe me, I know from personal experience that Shrike's outlook, as
revealed in his various oratories, can be deeply wounding to the
sincerely religious. Several readers I know, devout Christians, found
Shrike's words immensely hurtful... and we're saying that West
unleashed this pain because he wanted to have some fun? Worse
yet, that he inflicted these wounds needlessly, because they are not
in any way 'important' to the story? Just a sick little indulgence on
West's part, with little point and no possible gain for the reader? I
suppose here I'll have to drop this, because I hear myself becoming
over-insistent, and I can't go on flogging a dead lamb forever. But I
find this a very impoverishing view of West and his hard-won
masterpiece...
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (168 of
169), Read 9 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, June 09, 2000 03:41 PM
George: Alright, alright. "Most spiritually nihilistic perspective...And
the winner is: West, for his character Shrike in the novel Miss
Lonelyhearts" "I'd like the thank Mum, Dad, and God for this
honor--couldn't of wrote it without you guys."
Dick et al: I was somewhat shocked by the seemingly-cavalier
attitude of the writers expressing rape as a means to control women
writers, but I felt West was just targeting what a pathetic bunch of
losers were hanging out in that bar. They were so insecure in their
ability to write and earn fame and wealth that they would dedicate
their time to denigrating successful women writers through these
distorted fantasies.
By the way, since we're looking at some of the most disturbing, bleak
American literature, I'll throw this tidbit out there with a strong,
harsh caveat emptor: Samuel Delany wrote the novel Hogg from the
perspective of a little boy who befriends a horrid man who makes a
living brutally raping women for people kind of like the authors in ML's
bar. Delany said he actually met such a "rape artist" and that this
novel is an attempt to articulate such a bleak character.
Delany succeeds--and the thin result is filled with some of the most
hair-raising, nihilistic behavior I think ever read. The book is certainly
not PC and deserves to be filed as "pornography," even though I
somehow doubt anyone could be aroused by the vicious, unrelenting
course of the narrative.
Actually, I would place Delany's Hogg as a strong contender for
George's "most significant and influential examples of spiritual nihilism
in American literature" category.
And if you decide to order and read this thin novel, don't come
looking for me. In a way, I wish I had never read the work. I find it
actually haunts me, sort of like depressing passages by Dostoyevsky
or the words of these writers in ML.
Dan
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (169 of
169), Read 6 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Robert Armstrong (rla@nac.net)
Date:
Friday, June 09, 2000 04:06 PM
George,
Your posts are excellent. MISS LONELYHEARTS has had a significant
impact on me. Wednesday I am meeting with a young father who is
seriously ill with AIDS who has the same infection for which I was
hospitalized six times. I am being introduced to him as someone who
is supposed to offer hope. ML has been very helpful to me and I can't
exactly say why except that it explores the road not to take. I
regard this as a great novel.
Robt
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (170 of
170), Read 22 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Friday, June 09, 2000 07:59 PM
Dan--
A pretty bleak category we've created. The prize should probably be,
hmm... a black, fossilized heart?
I don't have any real interest in literary competitions though,
whether in books or in these posts. I only care about how great
books are served by how they are discussed. The crucial question,
on this issue anyway, is this: did it cost West anything to write
Shrike, and if so, how much? If Shrike was simply created to mock,
then he is what he has been called, a lampoon. But if it cost West
something emotionally to attack the noble precepts of Christianity, if
it wasn't EASY for him to make a character that corrodes Christ's
image with words like an acidic spill... then it's not just fun and
games anymore. I don't see any other way to divide this particular
question, which may indeed be a limitation of mine. But in West I
hear the agonized tone of a wounded idealist, someone who can't
believe in what they would like to believe in. And in Shrike I hear
West using all his verbal resources to self-inflict those idealistic
wounds... in the spirit of an admirable honesty (and a dash, I'm sure,
of wickedness). But the main point is, I think West LEARNED
something from creating Shrike and hoped his readers would learn
something also... even though it hurt him to write for him, and
probably should hurt us in a way to read him. But the emotional
stakes I guess at prohibit me from seeing it simply as a joke
peripheral to the story. That's all. And, of course, I could be very
much mistaken.
Robert--
Thanks again. Good luck with the meeting, and I'm glad one bad road
has been effaced for you by your reading. There are just so damn
many of those paths out there... it's nice to see any one of them
marked out and avoided.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (171 of
175), Read 33 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Saturday, June 10, 2000 08:25 AM
George, I think you've nailed it with: "But in West I hear the agonized
tone of a wounded idealist, someone who can't believe in what they
would like to believe in." Very perceptive, and what makes this book
a classic. There are a lot of wounded idealists out here.
Sherry
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (172 of
175), Read 33 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Robert Armstrong (rla@nac.net)
Date:
Saturday, June 10, 2000 09:05 AM
George,
I agree with Sherry. "Wounded idealist" nails it. It is the pathos in ML
that elevates it to something beyond cynicism.
Robt
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (173 of
175), Read 39 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Saturday, June 10, 2000 09:30 AM
George: Well put, I think. I'm reminded of another of our best-ever
discussions on CR, Cormac McCarthy's BLOOD MERIDIAN.
The character known as The Judge is somewhat Shrike-like, evil
personnified, with sweeping dark pronouncements intended to
disturb.
As Allen Crocker commented at the time, "When you hear what The
Judge is saying, it disturbs you and makes you angry. It can't be
possibly be true. But when you try to refute his arguments, you find
out you can't."
Which also reminds me of some great thinkers, such as Einstein, who
strongly resisted believing what they'd arrived at as fact: "I refuse to
believe God plays dice with the universe." But the truth won out.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (174 of
175), Read 39 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Saturday, June 10, 2000 11:13 AM
George, your obvious love for this little novel has served you well.
You have chaired a great discussion here of a difficult novel, and
we're not quite done yet, I don't think.
Steve
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (175 of
175), Read 34 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Janet Mego (vsjego@cs.com)
Date:
Saturday, June 10, 2000 07:06 PM
Dale--
"As flies to wanton boys are we to the gods--they kill us for their
sport"
--King Lear. The dice comment relates, I think. So does the Nihilism
in ML.
Robt--
"Pathos" is a key word here. Dale's much earlier comment is
interesting--a reaction to a point I thought might be pertinent re'
ML's frustrated attempt at EMPATHY with his writers. Also, I wanted
to say that the novel plus some EXTREMELY insightful analytical
comments here have helped me to understand some of my own
motivations, and specific behaviors I have found unable to explain to
myself, within myself. It's difficult for me to go into more detail
because it is something very personal--a private demon, if you
will--but I have found some of these analyses more of an epiphany
than I would have ever dreamed. I can relate (did when I read it and
do even more now) to the bumbling, PATHetic ML in many ways, and
don't mind admitting it. Does West intend for his readers to see
themselves in his title character? I think yes.
Robt, I hope to meet you one day. I also hope things continue to go
well in the context you mentioned above.
Janet
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (176 of
182), Read 21 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Robert Armstrong (rla@nac.net)
Date:
Monday, June 12, 2000 12:14 AM
Another novel that reminds me of Nathanael West's writing is Jean
Genet's OUR LADY OF THE FLOWERS. Also, the controversial John
Henry Abbott's IN THE BELLY OF THE BEAST. And while I'm at it:
Pasolini's noirest film ever SALO. Now there's an unholy trinity. What
these works have in common with ML is dark beauty. An advanced
aesthetic expression of life's down side without the horror edited out.
(I must add that SALO is the most disturbing film I have ever seen
and I have not made my peace with it as I have with these other
dark works.)
Janet,
Sometimes I wonder at myself for finding fiction with dark themes so
uplifting. However, dealing with tragedy vicariously through novels
seems to be as good a way as any to prepare myself for when it
manifests for real. Catharsis and epiphanies are experiences that I
seem to have with tales that traverse through the valley of the
shadow of death. Anyway, I am glad to hear you had an enriching
experience with MISS LONELYHEARTS.
Robt
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (177 of
182), Read 13 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, June 12, 2000 07:26 AM
Robt: Another lover of dark themes, here, and my cohorts have at
times thought me macabre or morbid over the years. I definitely buy
your theory about traveling through these dark valleys vicariously
being psychic preparation for the real thing. I also try to live by the
line, "Nothing that is human can be alien to me."
Also, I tell people that the advantage of being a confirmed pessimist
is that when you're surprised, it's always a pleasant one. {G}
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (178 of
182), Read 14 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, June 12, 2000 07:39 AM
I've been finding an intruiging possibility in ML's words lately. Hebrew
tradition has a concept called davhar, which is a word that is
simultaneously a thought and an act. Like a prayer that is instantly
effective, a davhar speaks and does something in the same moment.
There are many instances in ML where metaphors are taken to this
level.
"ML drank steadily. He was smiling an innocent, amused smile, the
smile of an anarchist sitting in the movies with a bomb in his pocket."
Most writers would leave the metaphor here, it's made its point.
West adds: "If the people around him only knew what was in his
pocket. In a little while he would leave to kill the President." It's as if
he is REALLY about to do it.
Many times ML pictures somebody as an object...then thinks through
the logical possibilities of their new form. He sees himself as a
skeleton, and sees Mrs. Doyle as a tent of flesh... then he makes the
skeleton enter the tent, and the skeleton 'flowers at every joint.'
ML wants his words to be davhars. He wants to dispense advice that
has an immediate effect. But it fails. He has trouble with sex. Sex is
an activity where words can be immediately successful. He says
'sleep with me' to several women... if they would, then the thought
would become a deed. But this fails also. Shrike's words are
reverse-davhars... he says something, and it immediately TAKES
AWAY the possibility of action in ML. The letters ML receives are
similar, they wish for things that will never happen.
Perhaps this is why Christ is so dangerous for ML? 'With Christ all
things are possible': and they are possible immediately. This is ML
thinking in the last chapter: 'He thought of this black world of things
as a fish. And he was right, for it suddenly rose to the bright bait on
the wall... He submitted drafts of his column to God and God
approved them. God approved his every thought.' The davhar has
broken loose in ML. He thinks, and it is instantly approved and
instituted.
Oddly, there is no hand on the gun when it shoots ML. It goes off
inside the newspaper. Have words pulled the trigger? I know that
sounds insane, but why was West careful to emphasize that Doyle
'pulls his hand out' AND THEN the gun goes off inside the package? In
any event, if ML secretly wishes to die here, then one of his
thoughts has finally become a davhar, and he is executed by it.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (179 of
182), Read 12 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, June 12, 2000 07:44 AM
George: Very interesting. There's also a sort of New Testament
equivalent of the davhar, as in the verse, "The word is nigh thee,
even in thy mouth."
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (180 of
182), Read 10 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Monday, June 12, 2000 08:31 AM
Intriguing possibilities here for the new reading list, Robert. Why not
Jean Genet? Our Lady of the Flowers would take us where we have
never gone before hereabouts. Clearly an acceptable choice for
Classics Corner.
As for In the Belly of the Beast, I'm not sure which reading list it
would be best for. I well remember the stir that one created when
the author become the darling of the New York literary scene on its
publication. In fact the New York literary scene led by Norman Mailer
can take credit for getting him out of prison. Of course, he soon
went right back in after another killing.
Steve
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (181 of
182), Read 12 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Robert Armstrong (rla@nac.net)
Date:
Monday, June 12, 2000 09:21 AM
George,
Your comments about davhers reminds me of John 1:1: "In the
beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God."
Steve,
Jean Genet is a true challenge to read. I would recommend A THIEF'S
JOURNAL instead of OUR LADY OF THE FLOWERS as it is more
accessible, but either one would spark lively discussions about
morality and art.
Robt
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (182 of
182), Read 9 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, June 12, 2000 10:37 AM
Robert--
I can see why the works you mentioned would come to mind.
Weirdly, considering CC's schedule, I associate ML most with Paradise
Lost... with Satan playing the role of Shrike to himself. He seems to
purposefully erode his own greatness, until he ends up on his belly
and hissing on Hell's floor.
Dale--
That's the only reason I mentioned davhars at all: the word is nigh
on virtually every page of ML. I think if one read through the book
underlining every metaphor that tries to spring to actual life a lot of
ink would get spilled. An example mentioned previously: "He walked
into the shadow of a lamp-post that lay on the path like a spear. It
pierced him like a spear."
What interests me is the fact that if my theory is even close, it
would make West almost uniquely hostile to his own medium: words.
Most writers, particularly reform-minded or religious ones, would
welcome the davhar concept with open arms. How much did Marx or
Mohammed or Milton want reality to become more like their own
conceptions of it? Very much, I would guess. Even a writer as
savage as Swift expected a real reader to infer nearly the opposite
of what he stated, and therein arrive at a picture of how things
should actually be. If West is in fact stating that words/thoughts are
actually harmful to reality, or that they are most useful for burning
away the false but are almost unable to provide the true, then what
an impasse he was facing as an artist! Although that might help
explain the black flame we've all been sensing at the core of ML...
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (183 of
189), Read 37 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, June 12, 2000 05:44 PM
George: I am truly fascinated with these "davhars" and their use
within West's novella. I had noticed a peculiar use of metaphor at
work within this work, but I could not figure out what West was
trying to articulate. It also connects with your Tower of Babel
analogy you mentioned way back: If you cannot even speak to
communicate, then how could you speak and achieve action with
your words?
Robert and Dale (et al): We broached the subject of "help groups"
and how West articulates the inherent malice and/or ennui than can
ensue--the notion that sitting in a circle with people with the same
problem as you does not really solve anything. I'm wondering just
how existentialist this is getting: There's no need for "specialists"
(and I use the term loosely) like Dr. Laura or "cathartic spectation" a
la Springer. There's no help in sitting around in a chummy circle of
people obsessively delineating problems. Then where can you go for
help?
West effectively destroys the entire notion of an advice columnists
with this novella and at the same time does a much better job of
uprooting one's faith in art, in bucolic bliss, in even Christianity to
help with the ache of being human. There's nothing here--just a
misplaced gesture of love that results in a gunshot. Apply this to
ourselves, think about, and the questions we are raising become
dark, black, and sinister. West effectively undermines the usual
solutions to dealing with the subjective violence and heartache of
living. In the world of ML, there is no help out there--only useless
philosophies and sarcastic laughter.
Dan
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (184 of
189), Read 42 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Monday, June 12, 2000 07:30 PM
Dan,
Yep.
Steve
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (185 of
189), Read 39 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Robert Armstrong (rla@nac.net)
Date:
Monday, June 12, 2000 11:34 PM
Dan,
Regarding support groups: I attend an AIDS support group regularly
and it rocks. Real life, real problems, real support. Five years ago
when I was very sick the whole thing was too much. Everybody in
the group was in some stage of dying and I was unable to get any
benefit from it. But now, I love it. So, I am not willing to dismiss the
genre out of hand.
As to the nihilism of ML: my interpretation of West's message is not
that nothing works but rather that this doesn't work. I can't
universalize the point. West explores the futility of this particular
configuration. Perhaps that's my way of keeping from being sucked
into a black hole. I feel the same way about BLOOD MERIDIAN.
McCarthy's message isn't that there is no God, but rather that God
isn't showing up in the usual places. To just take Job with boils
ignores a greater context.
Robt
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (186 of
189), Read 39 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Monday, June 12, 2000 11:47 PM
Robert, my "yep" to Daniel was meant only as agreement with his
reading of this story that all this world's "answers" to suffering are
hopelessly ineffectual. Even if we are right and that is a correct
reading, it need not constitute a black hole. Nothing requires us to
embrace this message as the truth of the matter ourselves. Your
note vividly illustrates one example of why we perhaps should not.
Steve
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (187 of
189), Read 40 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Monday, June 12, 2000 11:49 PM
Wonderful post, Robert. Wish I could have said it half so well. "To
just take Job with boils ignores a greater context." Too bad you can't
copyright aphorisms: you'd be rich in addition to being wise.
Although, one out of two ain't bad.
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (188 of
189), Read 42 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Robert Armstrong (rla@nac.net)
Date:
Tuesday, June 13, 2000 12:10 AM
Steve,
Your point is well taken. My interpretation has more to do with my
reading style than with West's point of view. I am able to inhabit
more fully the dark night of the soul knowing that day is coming.
Steve and Dick,
Thank you very much for your comments.
Robt
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (189 of
189), Read 39 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, June 13, 2000 08:54 AM
About midway through the chapter called 'ML and The Clean Old Man'
can be found ML's most hopeful vision. ML plays a piece by Mozart
on the piano and his sister (never mentioned again) dances 'gravely,
sweetly' to the music. This is a purely good memory for ML.
What goes wrong?
In his head, ML builds on the memory, adding his own abstracts
(formations of dancing children in lines, squares, and circles) and
then he does universalize the point: 'Every child, everywhere; in the
whole world there was not one child who was not dancing.'
ML cannot stop wishing his own style of good on everybody. He is
typically ambitious in an American way: absolutely everyone in every
possible space MUST be made happy.
While ML builds this dance-floor utopia in his head, he stumbles into
a man and gets punched in the mouth. This point is not particularly
subtle, but it's an important one: not everyone can be saved...but
perhaps not everyone can be destroyed. In any event, your own
personal good memories can't be wished on the whole world.
One paragraph later, the sweet circles of dancing children are
parodied with: '(ML's) anger swung in large, drunken circles.' The
charming personal memory goes rancid because it's been abstracted
and universalized.
Perhaps Jesus conveyed a message that can connect in individual
cases and have a universal appeal. Perhaps. ML obviously can't, and
Shrike could never be bested on the field of the abstract... only in
the realm of the personal, with deep self-assurance and good will
could someone beat Shrike. ML's disease is in his over-ambition, and
in the weak susceptibility of self that leaves him equally open to
Shrike (a near-anagram for Christ) and the Voice of God...
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (190 of
190), Read 7 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, June 16, 2000 06:02 PM
George: Extraordinary interpretation. I like it, I like it. Trying to find
one thing that will make everyone happy would be one of the most
depressing jobs on the planet, I'm sure.
Robert & Steve: I thought so.
Dan
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (98 of 190),
Read 16 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Pres Lancaster (plancast@slip.net)
Date:
Sunday, June 18, 2000 11:32 AM
"Why read Nathanael West's 'Miss Lonelyhearts'? Among other things
'to understand better our obsession with guns and violence.'"
From NYTBR 6/18, Michael Gorra's review of How To Read And Why,
by Harold Bloom.
Pres, with his tongue in his cheek.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (99 of 191),
Read 25 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, June 19, 2000 07:14 PM
Oh Pres--why did you wait so late into the game to tell us what
aspect of this novel to concentrate upon? The violence of guns. Of
course--why didn't I see it before?
Well, I'm chagrinned.
Dan
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (97 of 193),
Read 21 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Pres Lancaster (plancast@slip.net)
Date:
Tuesday, June 20, 2000 05:57 PM
DAN:
Listen, Fella, get this straight. Mr. Harold Bloom was speaking, and
when he speaks, YOU LISTEN.
RAMJAC
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (98 of 193),
Read 22 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, June 20, 2000 06:04 PM
Yeah. What Ramjac said. And Sarvac. And Darth. And all of my
homeys. What do you say about that?
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (99 of 193),
Read 23 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, June 20, 2000 06:14 PM
Pres: I'm sorry, there's just this ringing in my ears from all the
gunplay I initiate and participate within in my country--violent
gunplay. I cannot always hear the psychologically-astute Bloom's
whisper within my heart.
My forgiveness. And Dale? Who in blazes in Sarnac?
Dan
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (100 of 193),
Read 20 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Tuesday, June 20, 2000 10:50 PM
Let me assure you, Pres. When Harold Bloom speaks, I listen. Honest!
More about Love's Labour's Lost soon.
Steve
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (101 of 193),
Read 22 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, June 20, 2000 11:37 PM
The full quote from Bloom:
"Why read Nathanael West's 'Miss Lonelyhearts'? Among other things
to understand better our obsession with guns and violence, our
fanatic need to be loved by God, our Gnostic roots (which we deny
overtly) that teach us redemption through sin, but most of all to
experience the pleasures provided by our greatest of parodists since
Mark Twain himself."
This quote falls in the context of a discussion of the darkest strand
of American literature: Moby Dick, As I Lay Dying, ML, The Crying of
Lot 49, and Blood Meridian. It argues that we (like Doyle) tend to
enhance ourselves physically (with weapons like guns) more than we
crave enhancing ourselves emotionally or intellectually. (Though CR
belies that trend...unless you're all secretly armed out there). As you
can see, Bloom's emphasis is really more on West's skill as a writer
and insight into the violent underbelly of American religion than on AK
47's...
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (100 of 196),
Read 20 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, June 21, 2000 02:56 PM
Thank you, George. I always find Harold Bloom interesting and
controversial, but never stupid. I was starting to wonder when I read
the original quote.
Barb
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (101 of 196),
Read 20 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 22, 2000 12:54 AM
Barbara--
I started my comments on this thread (o so long ago!) with Professor
Bloom's take on ML... I might as well finish them that way.
I imagine I'm a little touchy on this topic: Bloom's writings have
meant more to me than I think I could even express. I probably
wouldn't have even read ML if I hadn't stumbled across one of
Bloom's essays 10 years ago.
One of his arguments then, and more recently, seems to me this:
creative invention IS literature... over technique, over intellect, over
even the author's own intentions at times. That is why (and I swear
on a stack of 'The Book of J's' this is the last time I'll mention it)
Shrike's Dismal Swamp litany haunts me so. West's gift of invention
only blows into a full flame when he's de-inventing: Shrike
systematically dismantles-through-parody Melville, Lawrence, Wilde,
Daniel Webster, Marlowe, and The Bible itself (among others) and he
wreaks this havoc simply because he can. This SHOULD be
reprehensible, but because a new artistic glory is being mounted in
these ruins, it is somehow liberating also. West is by no means the
equal of Henry James or Faulkner or Melville, but his mastery of
invention-by-assault makes him their rival in at least this one area, as
Bloom hints repeatedly... and I'm very grateful to him for the insight.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (102 of 196),
Read 17 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 22, 2000 06:37 AM
George,
I never would have seen what I have in this story if you hadn't
nominated it and led such an insightful discussion here. Thanks to
you and to Bloom for bringing you to it.
I've only read parts of Bloom's writing in his Canon, but I find that he
always looks at things a little differently than anyone else I read,
sees fresh (to me) aspects and points. This is a very precious quality
in our herd-like society. I don't always agree with him (as in his
statement that Hadji Murad is the best of Tolstoy's writing), but I'm
glad he made me think about it.
Barb
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (103 of 196),
Read 9 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 22, 2000 08:23 AM
George: Excellently put. Einstein said "Imagination is more important
than knowledge," and I think that goes triple where fiction writing is
concerned.
Thanks for the nomination, and for all you've brought to the
discussion here.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (104 of 196),
Read 11 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Thursday, June 22, 2000 08:27 AM
If Harold Bloom did not exist, we would have to invent him. I am
becoming more and more of a fan myself. However, can he ever be
difficult! A real challenge sometimes. I have his book on Shakespeare,
and I am simply not bright enough to grasp some of it. (A little trivia.
Harold Bloom's personal favorite is Love's Labour's Lost.)
Depends on one's perspective though. I read something by one of his
former student's recently along the lines of, "Harold Bloom could suck
the life out of a cadaver."
Steve
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (87 of 181),
Read 31 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Thursday, June 22, 2000 02:05 PM
"Shrike systematically dismantles-through-parody Melville, Lawrence,
Wilde, Daniel Webster,
Marlowe, and The Bible itself (among others) and he wreaks this
havoc
simply because he can. This SHOULD be reprehensible..."
I see no reason at all why this should be considered reprehensible.
I'm rather fond onf iconoclasm. All's fair in etc., etc., and writing.
Ruth
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathaniel West (88 of 181),
Read 34 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 22, 2000 05:53 PM
Ruth--
I'm sorry, I should've clarified: what Shrike says is reprehensible
because its designed to destroy ML. As calculated by Shrike, the
assault is intellectually incendiary and definitely evil. As written by
West, it is what you said: wonderfully iconoclastic and brilliant.
The literary effect of making a morally unacceptable villain artistically
worthwhile is not so easy to achieve. Countless horror and
mainstream novels ooze into the marketplace each year depending
upon the voyeuristic lures of violent acts, violent sex, and violent
thoughts to propel them into bestseller lists... but with no artistic
payoff.
West manages to rise above that while sinking most of our hopes in
the process... a complicated achievement.
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (181 of
181), Read 5 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Saturday, June 24, 2000 09:24 AM
George, recently I read Tender is the Night by F. Scott Fitzgerald at
an age when I could finally understand it. Because I had missed the
discussion of that book here some time ago, I went shopping for
other on-line book discussion groups and amazingly enough, found
one that was just undertaking that novel. Let me tell you! That
discussion has been pathetic!
Now we here do our share of list making, title trading, and general
jim-jamming. However, we also at times get down to a real discussion
of the text of a book, such as occurred here and with Lolita, for
example.
Let me just say to you, thank you for this nomination and thank you
for being here.
Steve
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (181 of
186), Read 34 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Saturday, June 24, 2000 10:22 AM
Permit me to amplify just a bit. On a frequent basis, I calculate a
"Health Index" based on the number of posts on the WebBoard. First,
I disregard the "Constant Reader" conference. There are about equal
parts list-making-title-trading-jim-jamming and real book discussions
in that conference. Therefore, it is a wash.
Then I use the total of notes in "Reading List Books," "Classics
Corner," and "Short Stories" as a numerator and the total of notes in
"Reading List Books," "Classics Corner," "Short Stories," "C.R. Salon,"
and "Movies, films and videos" as a denominator to come up with a
percentage.
As of early this morning that percentage was quite a healthy 51.6%,
thanks to you and others who became enthused with a real
discussion of Nathanael West.
While rough, I think my index is okay even though it doesn't take into
account "Words," which frankly, I don't know how to take into
account.
Steve
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (182 of
186), Read 17 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Saturday, June 24, 2000 08:11 PM
There is no accounting for words -- or maybe words is an attempt at
accounting for words.
Dottie -- who is up way past bedtime
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (183 of
186), Read 17 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Saturday, June 24, 2000 11:02 PM
Steve--
I felt like I impeded the discussion as much as I helped it... but I'm
glad someone saw it otherwise.
I too have witnessed many, many sad discussions of literature online
and in person... they stay entirely personal and never do seem to get
to the text itself, which to me is like paying for a new car and only
bringing home the keys.
I appreciate what you and your compadres here bring to the table (or
to the garage, if I persist with a bad metaphor...)
Literature is salvation. It should be served well, with thought and
humor, and at least there's one group of people doing it. It's a
pleasure to participate...
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (184 of
186), Read 17 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Robert Armstrong (rla@nac.net)
Date:
Sunday, June 25, 2000 01:14 AM
George,
You are absurd with modesty to feel that you impeded as much as
helped the discussion. Your remarks are enriching to read. I add my
thanks for your participation. ML is a highpoint of my reading
experience so far this year.
Robt
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (185 of
186), Read 17 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ernest Belden (drernest@pacbell.net)
Date:
Sunday, June 25, 2000 01:51 AM
Steve,
I spent a good deal of time pondering your comment of June 2. You
mentioned how your work affects you and what it can do to a person
who is perhaps a bit more sensitive than the average. To play ML
gets to you if you are in one of the helping professions. You
mentioned the problems you can solve and the problems you can not
solve and the tragedies that are tied to them.
Well there are similarities to my work experience as a clinical
psychologist. However my situation may have been worse. I worked
in a mental hospital with the most disturbed individuals during the
day. Evenings and weekend I engaged in private practice I evaluated
people sent by the Welfare people and a few who came on their own
to get help.
Unfortunately I felt deep down that I could hardly help anyone. Yes I
could develop a diagnosis or find the IQ so that welfare could go from
there. Well, I have seen a number of our psychologists and
psychiatrists break down and have episodes of mental illness as well
and one can argue that they were unstable to begin with -or - that
the pain got to them. So what does one do? One retreats and
escapes into reading, etc., and may come out of these experiences in
one piece if lucky.
Retirement and teaching was different. I did teach all sort of things
on all sorts of levels and there you deal mostly with whole people.
Retirement is salvation! While working in these "helping" professions
on needs to be backed by fine relationships, nice home, perhaps
children, etc. to come out on top or to just survive.
Ernie
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (186 of
186), Read 15 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Sunday, June 25, 2000 05:04 AM
Ernie -- this reminds me of the discussion of the CR personality typing
discussion -- and leads to the thought that many folks in these
professions who are working with people and seeing the repetitive
nature of the problems of humankind -- lawyers, psychologists,
psychiatrists, social work -- teachers -- and on and on may, in fact,
tend to the CR syndrome and read their way to staying healthy and
may be of more help to those they are serving as a result of being
readers and THINKERS. What say you on that idea?
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
JUNE DISCUSSION: Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West (100 of
174), Read 9 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, June 26, 2000 08:26 AM
Steve: I agree with you--though I will occasionally poke my nose into
the Constant Reader conference to see what's happening.
Robert: I agree--George's posts forced me to attend to this novel
and not dismiss it as trivial ennui.
In fact, because of the enthusiasm and the hints George dropped
about the utter complexity of this seemingly simplistic novel, I went
to the local university library the other day and browsed the shelves
for material on West.
I came across a work entitled The Fiction of Nathanael West: No
Redeemer, No Promised Land by Randall Reid, published 1967. Reid's
opening two paragraphs absolutely floored me, reminding me of the
very points many of us here have made regarding West's novel:
A critical study of Nathanael West is hardly a novelty. After years of
being out of fashion, his work now suffers from another danger, that
of being taken for granted. West is routinely cited as a precursor of
current literary trends, his name i sure to be dropped in any
discussions of the grotestque, and book reviewers automatically
compare new Hollywood novels with The Day of the Locusts. Miss
Lonelyhearts has even undergone that ceremony which, in some
literary circles, constitutes a ritual initiation--two recent critics have
detected in it a case of repressed homosexuality. And the number of
books and articles devoted to West's work grows so rapidly that a
bibliographer has trouble keeping up. There is in all at least one
development which is worthy of simple gratitude--West's books are
back in print and available in various paperbacks, foreign editions,
and translations. His work is obviously being read, and it deserves to
be. But it does not deserve to be fashionable. That West's name
should come into vogue at a time when "black humor" is as
marketable as sex--and often as synthetic as the Playmate of the
month--is just a depressing, and peculiarly Westian, joke. It is true
that West was in many ways the enemy of his own time, but he was
no herald of ours.
West's vogue has not, of course, been complete. None of his books
has ever become a campus fad, and none is ever likely to. He
frustrates too many of the common motives for reading. West does
not invite the reader to see himself as a sensitive soul in a cruel
world, a world made cruel by the stupidity and heartlessness of
others. Nor does he allow a reader the comforts of superior
laughter. In the deflationary world of his books, simple mockery
collapses as completely as simple self-pity. So do all the customary
poses: ironic detachment, passionate involvement, heartfelt
compassion. A reader who wants a simple attitude to take toward
his world will therefore get no help from West.
Reid's discussion of Miss Lonelyhearts is magnificent. He reads the
texts, notes influences, and is always careful to elucidate the text
and not a particular critical theory. In the process, Reid's humor
comes out at odd times make his work more like one of our
discussions than critical spectacle.
Reid discusses the roots of West's work and how West's parody is
hard to define and to emulate. He discusses how West envisioned
Miss Lonelyhearts as a "comic-strip novel" and presents a stunning
commentary on just how well West manipulates the graphic media in
a novel of words.
Oh--and Reid discusses how ML is a modern Raskolnikov. When he is
finished, it's hard for me to wonder how I didn't see just how
complete West was in both parodying Crime and Punishment as well
as commenting on Dostoyevsky. Not that The Brothers Karamazov
was a red-herring, but Reid shows how West was thinking of
Raskolnikov and "rewriting Dostoyevsky with shears," taking out all
the filler and such.
I don't have time to delve any deeper, but I will note this: If anyone
would like me to snail mail them a copy of Reid's article, I would be
happy to oblige. If you were fascinated with this discussion, then
Reid's work certainly complements the work done here. Just email to
let me know.
Dan
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