Amazon.com:
As a novelist, Peter Carey is hardly a stranger to the 19th century: his Oscar and Lucinda was a veritable treasure-trove of Victoriana. In this novel, however, Carey has set himself an even more complicated task--reimagining not only a vanished era but one of that era's masterpieces. Jack Maggs is a variation on Great Expectations, in which Dickens's tale is told from the viewpoint of Australian convict Abel Magwitch. The names, it's true, have been tinkered with, but the book's literary paternity is unmistakable. So, too, is the postcolonial spin that Carey puts on Dickens's material: this time around, the prodigal Maggs is perceived less as an invading alien than a righteous (if not particularly welcome) refugee.
Topic:
Jack Maggs (1 of 12), Read 36 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Bob Markiewicz (bobmarkiewicz@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, March 01, 2000 04:36 AM
On 2/29/00 6:01:05 PM, Ann Davey wrote:
>My most recent life
>interrupter is Jack Maggs, the
>Constant Reader
>March selection. Once I
>started, I just could not put
>this down. The
>author character in the book
>is obviously supposed to
>represent Charles
>Dickens. The other characters
>represent "real life" people
>who became
>the author's model for the
>characters in a book he later
>wrote, very
>similar toGreat Expectations.
>It is especially fun if you
>have just finished
>GR, but it's quite a page
>turner in its own right.
Being as Ann was kind enough to start in on a bit early on this one,
does anyone mind if I move it over here and make my own
comments?I assume y'all can ignore us and join in when you're
reading?
There are no spoilers here; nonetheless, proceed at your own risk.
I am halfway through, Ann. I loved the first fifty pages, found JM
dark and quite witty. But when Jack takes up residence in the
house, the hypnosis begins and he has to take action in the house,
I'm feeling that Carey has lost control and it's a lot less interesting
and more forced and really having to push myself now.
This is not exactly a hardship. Yet. I did abandon Joyce Carol
Oates BLONDE for this, though, as I was crawling through it and
very unhappy about it. I HATE it when my reading slows down, as I
usually crank them out 2 - 3 a week.
BOB
Topic:
Jack Maggs (2 of 12), Read 36 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Wednesday, March 01, 2000 08:44 AM
Bob, I just came over to this conference to say "Let's start
discussing JM on the 15th", but you beat me to it. I won't be able
to chime in for a while, because I haven't cracked the book yet. I
hope the messages don't time out before I get a chance to read
them.
Sherry
Topic:
Jack Maggs (3 of 12), Read 39 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Bob Markiewicz (bobmarkiewicz@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, March 01, 2000 08:57 AM
>I hope
>the messages don't time out
>before I get a chance to read
>them.
>
>Sherry
>
I didn't know this happened. I guess I'll shut up.
BOB
Topic:
Jack Maggs (4 of 12), Read 40 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Tonya Presley (tpresley@swbell.net)
Date:
Wednesday, March 01, 2000 09:18 AM
Bob--No, no! Don't shut up! This conference is set to archive
notes after 45 days, so they aren't in danger of timing off.
There's no explaining why, but I love these "during the reading
impressions". There are always a few that pop up in discussions of
the official books, but next to none about other books. I almost
never post about a book in the middle of reading it; I'm always
worried that my impression will change by the end, but I'll neglect
to look it up again and report about it. I do remember, though I
wasn't reading along, how much fun it was reading Thom's chapter
by chapter reactions to A Man in Full.
Anyhow, it's obvious I'm not gonna get to Great Expectations, but
I'll be stopping by Half Price to check for Jack Maggs again today,
fingers crossed. (I really don't get it, they always get multiple
copies of books that sell well, but I have not found a copy of this
there yet!)
Tonya
Topic:
Jack Maggs (5 of 12), Read 47 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Bob Markiewicz (bobmarkiewicz@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, March 01, 2000 09:46 AM
>
>Anyhow, it's obvious I'm not
>gonna get to Great
>Expectations, but I'll be
>stopping by Half Price to
>check for Jack Maggs again
>today, fingers crossed. (I
>really don't get it, they
>always get multiple copies of
>books that sell well, but I
>have not found a copy of this
>there yet!)
>Tonya
>
Here you go, possum, plenty of hardcover copies at a mere $5.98:
http://www.daedalus-books.com/
Anything else you might like, too, tons and tons of remainders.
But DON"T tell anybody else!
BOB
Topic:
Jack Maggs (6 of 12), Read 49 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, March 01, 2000 10:04 AM
A few years ago, when Ann and I read War and Peace together on
Classics Corner, we did those chapter by chapter discussions.
Since it took us all summer to finish, it was the only way to keep
the topic alive. However, I agree with you, Tonya, I really enjoyed
that process and like it when we do it with other books too (as
long as there are no spoilers).
Barb
Topic:
Jack Maggs (7 of 12), Read 53 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Wednesday, March 01, 2000 11:47 AM
Tonya,
I didn't know that the notes were set to stay here that long.
Great. I'll probably start reading this today. I saw Peter Carey at a
book signing and he was quite entertaining. He's Australian and he
was interested in the history of convicts being exported to
Australia. He had never read any Dickens before he read Great
Expectations and loved the book. I'm not sure if he read GE just to
read about Maggwitch (I forgot how to spell that) or if the reading
of GE got him thinking. Anyway, I think it's fascinating to find how
people come up with book ideas.
Sherry
Topic:
Jack Maggs (8 of 12), Read 38 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, March 01, 2000 02:52 PM
I won't, Bob. Mum's the word. Thanks for the tip.
Dan
Topic:
Jack Maggs (9 of 12), Read 19 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Wednesday, March 01, 2000 08:25 PM
Bob,
I was a bit bothered when we got to the hypnosis part too, but
then the story picked up again. Dickens himself was very
interested in "mesmerism." I don't know how believable it is that a
tough character like Jack could be hypnotized unwillingly.
Someone tried to hypnotize me once and it was a complete flop. I
understand only some people can be hypnotized.
Ann
Topic:
Jack Maggs (10 of 12), Read 15 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Thursday, March 02, 2000 02:12 AM
Ann -- But aren't there some people who are also hyper-sensitive
and therefore easily hypnotized? Seems like I remember something
like that.
I got past that initial scene and am now thinking this may be a
better comparison than I thought -- see how quickly the scene
can shift? I have thoughts already that this book will relate to
Dickens real life as much as to characters in GE or any other
Dickens writing. At any rate -- I think this joint discussion will be
interesting.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Jack Maggs (11 of 12), Read 13 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Bob Markiewicz (bobmarkiewicz@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, March 02, 2000 06:09 AM
Twasn't the hypnotisim I was referring to, it was the house
confinement. In any case, Dickens' fascination with it is well
documented and, well, you better get used to it, because it runs
all the way through the book.
BOB
Topic:
Jack Maggs (12 of 12), Read 2 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Tonya Presley (tpresley@swbell.net)
Date:
Thursday, March 02, 2000 10:01 AM
Bob, I've visited that site before, but never bookmarked it. Thanks
for the reminder. They used to send catalogs to me, but I haven't
had one for a long time.
Sherry, I think the time to archiving was recently increased. I
know it's pretty darn long, because breaking it away from the CR
conference keeps it down to 4 or 5 topics at a time, max, and
response stays bearable.
Ann, I think mesmerism was a worldwide fad for a while, and a lot
of famous names were involved. Didn't Alias Grace bring up a
famous name in relation to hypnotism? And there was a movie, a
few years ago, that portrayed somebody famous (maybe Mark
Twain? Where is Kent when you need him?) deeply involved and
publicly supportive of hypnotism.
Tonya
Topic:
Jack Maggs (13 of 15), Read 21 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Thursday, March 02, 2000 06:08 PM
Yes, Tonya, I think mesmerism was quite the fad. George Eliot was
also very interested in it.
Bob, thanks for clarifying that you meant confining the action to
the house, rather than the mesmerism. I don't know how far you
are, but at the end of the book the action finally breaks away from
the London houses.
Ann
Topic:
Jack Maggs (14 of 15), Read 22 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Bob Markiewicz (r j markiewicz@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, March 02, 2000 07:06 PM
Finished it last night, Ann, but am keeping very, very still.
BOB
Topic:
Jack Maggs (15 of 15), Read 11 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Friday, March 03, 2000 03:31 AM
My comment at the moment is -- that hesitant walking start
certainly didn't last -- I am racing through at breakneck pace now
and will certainly be done early next week unless I manage to read
between rambles to Carnaval activities this weekend -- well,
maybe midweek as there is event Carnaval event on Tuesday to
see the Gilles in Binche!
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Jack Maggs (16 of 16), Read 25 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Friday, March 03, 2000 07:00 PM
Well -- THAT squeezing the reading into the Carnaval schedule
problem got solved -- finished Maggs with my brunch today! What
a book!
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Jack Maggs (17 of 22), Read 29 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Tuesday, March 07, 2000 10:54 AM
I’m so glad I read this right after I read Great Expectations. Even though
I know I would have enjoyed it in any case, the juxtaposition was
rewarding. When I first heard about this book and found out it was based
on a character in GE, my little linear mind made the assumption that JM
would begin where GE left off. Then at the end of GE I realized that
couldn’t possibly be the case. I’m sure I won’t give anything away by
telling you that JM is a book that fictionalizes how Dickens might have
come up with the idea of GE. Carey weaves a fascinating story combining
ideas in GE and elements of Dickens’s real life (although I haven’t read a
biography of him, I’m assuming these elements are based on reality). Has
anyone more information about that?
I think Carey’s writing is excellent. He captures the spirit of the times,
but his prose is tight and modern, without the excesses you find in
Dickens (however lovable those excesses might be). His Jack Maggs is a
more dynamic character and more real to me than the Magwitch in GE.
Sherry
Topic:
Jack Maggs (18 of 22), Read 23 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Tuesday, March 07, 2000 07:17 PM
I think that the biographical detail in JM definitely fits with the facts of
his life as laid out by Irving in his intro to my edition of GE, Sherry. I
agree that JM was definitely worth the read! Am glad to have read it in
close conjunction with GE.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Jack Maggs (19 of 22), Read 24 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Tuesday, March 07, 2000 08:16 PM
Sherry,
I have no doubt that Dickens was the inspiration for Tobias Oates, the
author in JACK MAGGS, but they are by no means identical. Trying to
figure out what Carey borrowed from Dickens' actual life and what he
simply invented is part of the fun.
I knew from Phyllis Rose's PARALLEL LIVES that Dickens engineered a
separation from his wife and that he had unusually close relationships
with two of her sisters.
His wife bore him 10 children and had two miscarriages in the course of
about 16 years. You'd think this might have bought her some
consideration, but after what seemed like a happy early married life,
Dickens ended up deciding that he absolutely couldn't tolerate living with
her any more and he forced her to leave home. He did give her a
generous settlement. He kept the kids that were still at home, except for
the oldest son who went to live with his mother for awhile. The children
were allowed to visit their mother. The separation itself might not have
been so bad, but Dickens publicly placed all of the blame for the break-up
on his poor wife, accusing her of being a bad mother among many other
failings. It was as if, after the separation, he made up the plot for his
marriage and tried to rewrite the facts to fit it. Sounds to me like he had
a bad case of well-deserved guilt.
Early in their marriage, his wife's young sister Mary came to live with
them. Dickens was infatuated with this girl, who died very suddenly when
she was only 17 or 18. There had been no warning that she was sick.
She died in Dickens' arms and her death was attributed to a heart
attack. Dickens mourned terribly for this sister-in-law. Up to two years
after she had died, he was still getting out her old clothes to hold, and
he wanted to be buried in the same grave as she.
I checked out a couple of biographical books about Dickens from the
library. Neither author felt that the relationship between Dickens and the
sister-in-law was physical, although the way he wrote about her and his
behavior after her death certainly seem suspicious to modern readers.
Later, Georgina, another of his wife's sisters came to live with the
couple. This one helped with the household and children and even stayed
on with Dickens after he booted out his wife. There were rumors at the
time that they were involved in a sexual relationship, but again, these
authors did not feel that was the case.
I mention all this because Tobias's relationship with his sister-in-law in
JACK MAGGS is a pivotal part of the plot.
Ann
Topic:
Jack Maggs (20 of 22), Read 24 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@hotmail.com)
Date:
Tuesday, March 07, 2000 08:47 PM
Ann,
Thanks for the information about Dickens. It is a good thing that I enjoy
his books, otherwise I wouldn't be able to stand him because of his
personal life!
Jane
Topic:
Jack Maggs (21 of 22), Read 25 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Tuesday, March 07, 2000 10:08 PM
Jane,
As the kids today say, Dickens had a lot of "issues". He was a very
complex individual and must have felt considerable guilt about his
treatment of his wife, Catherine, since he felt such a strong need to
rationalize his behavior to everyone. Dale and Sherry like the quote "It's
never too late to have a happy childhood." In Dickens' case, I'm afraid it
was.
I like to read about the classic authors. Literary giants often have a poor
track record in the human relationship department. However, there are
some who seem to have been genuinely decent human beings. I admire
William Thackery, who treated his mentally ill wife very well and
incidentally remained a friend of Mrs. Dickens after the forced separation,
and I also like George Elliot, who was exceptionally generous to the family
of her lover, George Lewis.
I am, of course, willing to concede that my interest in literary biography
is a weakness and that my appraisal of an author's writing should never
be influenced by my evaluation of his life. It's just that I can't help
wondering what made these great minds tick.
Ann
Topic:
Jack Maggs (22 of 22), Read 18 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, March 08, 2000 08:25 AM
Ann: T.S. Eliot once noted he despised Milton the man but admired
Milton the author. Literary biographies make fascinating reading, but, like
you say, we must be careful to distinguish the art from the life whenever
feasible.
Dan
Topic:
Jack Maggs (23 of 23), Read 21 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, March 08, 2000 08:55 PM
Ann and Dan,
The same can be said about film directors. Woody Allen would be a
good example of a great film maker but a lousy person. I know that
some people boycott his films because of his personal life. What if
people started boycotting authors because of their personal lives?
It seems much easier to ignore the faults of an author who was
alive more than a hundred years ago.
Jane
Topic:
Jack Maggs (24 of 25), Read 7 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Friday, March 17, 2000 07:48 AM
So, since we are past the usual date for starting the thread for the
Reading List Book, has anyone else finished Jack Maggsyet? I hope we
haven't finished our discussion. For people who didn't read Great
Expectationsjust previously, how did JM stand on its own?
Sherry
Topic:
Jack Maggs (25 of 25), Read 2 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, March 17, 2000 09:01 AM
I am glued to this novel at the present, Sherry. I will comment on it as
soon as I finish. All I can say right now is that I find Maggs' letters to
Philip most interesting.
Dan
Topic:
Jack Maggs (26 of 27), Read 8 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Friday, March 17, 2000 09:46 AM
Sherry,
I has been at least two weeks since I finished JACK MAGGS, and the
details are already slipping away, but I found it a great read. I loved
the twists and turns in the plot. It reminded me a lot of 19th century
novels written for serialization, which always had a hook at the end of
the serial to ensure that reader would come back for more.
Toby, the author in JACK MAGGS, is based to a large extent on Charles
Dickens. "Mesmerism" (i.e., hypnosis) plays a large part in the plot of
JM. Out of curiosity, I checked out the role this played in Dickens' life.
Interestingly enough, he was an expert at hypnotizing others,
although he himself refused to be hypnotized, fearing a loss of control
which I can well understand. For several months, Dickens himself
"treated" a mentally disturbed woman suffering from extreme anxiety.
One of its symptoms was a nervous tic or facial spasm. She believed
she was being pursued by a phantom who appeared in her dreams and
wouldn't let her rest. During the hypnosis sessions, Dickens tried to
draw her out about this demon.
This sounds a lot like JACK MAGGS, doesn't it? These parallels with
Dickens and GE made the book more fun for me, although they have
nothing to do with its literary merit.
I too am curious about the reaction of readers who did not read
GREAT EXPECTATIONS.
Ann
Topic:
Jack Maggs (27 of 27), Read 2 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Tonya Presley (tpresley@swbell.net)
Date:
Friday, March 17, 2000 10:18 AM
I read Great Expectations in junior high, but not last month, so almost
anything I remember about it is probably based on movies instead of
the book. I am reading Jack Maggs (but I haven't been getting a lot of
reading time lately-- it's beginning to feel like I've been reading Jack
Maggs for the greater part of my life!) Anyway, about two-thirds of
the way through, what I find myself looking for and anticipating is a
similarity between the obsessions of Pip and Jack to the young
females, Estella and Sophina. I haven't seen anything specific beyond
the fact that they wanted to spend their lives with these girls and
didn't, but it is what I keep expecting. It would not be possible for me
on my own to discern Dickens/Toby parallels, since everything I know
about Dickens is what I'm reading here.
Tonya
Topic:
Jack Maggs (28 of 31), Read 28 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Friday, March 17, 2000 10:50 AM
I've been waiting for the discussion to begin, and didn't realize that
we'd passed the starting gate.
As I said in the GE thread, I've read it twice before, the last time
maybe 20 years ago, and did not reread it last month, so I won't be
much good at teasing out parallels between GE and JM.
I finished JM a few days ago, and the book is already back at the
library. This was a rollicking good read, though. A good old-fashioned
novel. I enjoyed it, especially the flavor of Dickens' London.
I did have to give my "willing suspension of disbelief" a purposeful hoist
or two in order to swallow that letter JM was composing throughout.
Nobody, but nobody, writes letters like that. But perhaps this was just
another hark back to 19th century literature, which often used this
kind of device.
Ruth
Topic:
Jack Maggs (29 of 31), Read 24 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
David Moody (davidmoody@prodigy.net)
Date:
Friday, March 17, 2000 12:11 PM
While I found this book an interesting read--and one which kept the
attention--there were aspects that bothered me. Maggs's mood
swings are just too wild. It's hard for me to imagine this character
settling down and living happily ever after.
The whole ending has a quality which I've been seeing in a number of
books lately, where the whole convoluted plot suddenly gets wrapped
up in one chapter spanning the last thirty or forty years of the
characters' lives. It's as though the author was just sick of the whole
thing, or received orders from his publisher to wrap the whole thing up
already and quit wasting paper. This was one of my few complaints
with Corelli's Mandolin, for example.
As for the connection with Great Expectations, I found Jack Maggs
disappointing in that aspect as well. My impression was that the
author simply rewrote GE, mixing in some historical facts from Dickens'
life. It seemed more like an exercise in circular logic than anything.
David
Topic:
Jack Maggs (30 of 31), Read 22 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Friday, March 17, 2000 12:49 PM
David,
I can understand your reaction to the ending. It made me smile. I
didn't really buy it, of course, but it was just so 19th century.
I thought of JM as more of a riff on GE and Charles Dickens rather than
a rewriting. Maggs was quite a different character than Abel Magwitch
(hope I got that name right), for example and the Pip character was
divided into two different people in the Carey version.
Carey seemed to be presenting a fictional author, similar but not
identical to Dickens, who wrote a book like GREAT EXPECTATIONS.
The artifice, if you will, of Carey's book is that he shows us the real
people who inspired this author.
Ann
Topic:
Jack Maggs (31 of 31), Read 20 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Friday, March 17, 2000 01:05 PM
On 3/17/00 12:49:11 PM, Ann Davey wrote:
Ann -- I want to hear more about the split Pip characters from you. I
think the Maggs characters based on the real life folks in Dickens life
were every bit as fascinating as the character Dickens created in GE
and which Carey 'morphed' in Jack Maggs. Am looking forward to
hearing more and to the opinions of those who read GE as juxtaposed
with those who have either never read or who did not reread GE with
the group! Should prove a lively discussion.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Jack Maggs (32 of 32), Read 6 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@hotmail.com)
Date:
Saturday, March 18, 2000 08:57 PM
Like Tonya, I read GREAT EXPECTATIONS in the ninth grade. Since I
recently watched a Masterpiece Theater on GE, I didn't want to
reread the novel. The story seemed fairly fresh in my mind. I found
JACK MAGGS to be very different from GE in that it focused on the
prisoner and not on the young man who received the education from
the prisoner. The part of JM that I liked the most was the story of his
childhood. This is what reminded me most of Dickens. The part of the
novel where JM locks everyone in the house seemed a bit much.
Jane
Topic:
Jack Maggs (33 of 37), Read 17 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 19, 2000 10:04 AM
Dottie,
I remarked earlier that I thought two characters in JM resembled Pip in
GE, and you asked me to elaborate.
I was thinking of Percy Buckle, who had very unexpectedly been elevated
to the position of gentleman by a mysterious inheritance only a year
earlier, and Henry Phipps(even the name is very close), the disappearing
next door neighbor. They had both enjoyed elements of Pip's experience,
although there are very obvious dissimilarities as well.
Of course, these characters are just as fictional as those in GE, but you
can guess how Tobias Oates might have drawn from them to create his
book called The Death of Maggs, just as Dickens may have refashioned
some of his personal experiences to create Great Expectations.
Ann
Topic:
Jack Maggs (34 of 37), Read 12 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 19, 2000 05:46 PM
Ah -- thank you, Ann, Henry Phipps was Maggs' beneficiary of course as
Pip was of Magwitch but I had temporarily lost the Buckle newly rich
angle! Yes -- it was interesting from the standpoint of the comparison
between what Buckle did/did not do after his elevation in status and
Phipps -- and what Maggs might have expected of Phipps.
Dottie -- who will say again that she is glad to have read Maggs in
conjunction with GE
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Jack Maggs (35 of 37), Read 11 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Bob Markiewicz (bob markiewicz@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 19, 2000 06:01 PM
Am I the only one who really hated this book?
I dumped it twenty pages before the messy ending could burn the book
down completely.
While I did not read GE with you, I have read it many times, even
recently, and remember it well.
When JM started, I thought it was going to be sensational, dark and
atmospheric, up through the arrival at the house. (I love the name
Lambs' Conduit!)
Aside from Jack, who, as someone has pointed out, has mood swings,
and Tobias, who is totally hateful, there isn't a fully fleshed out,
interesting character in the entire novel, certainly nothing to compare to
the Dickens' characters he's choosing to emulate.
There are so many loose endings....for example, the out-of-the-blue
revelations of the footman and Phipps buggery, the entire homosexual
angle is dropped in, presumably to provide some revelation about Phipps,
and totally forgotten.
We have Carey doing a spinoff of Dickens, we have Maggs doing a spinoff
of Dickens (whatever is all that roofcrawling about?), then we get Tobias
writing HIS Dickens. At this point I was really afeared we were going to
get the whole damned thing.
And that house quarantine with Tobias as the doctor and the death that
follows and those long boring patches with those people trapped in that
house, as someone has already said, was totally unbelievable and the
beginning of my losing any sense of credibility.
I have long wanted to read JACK MAGGS and joining you in a discussion
prompted to finally do so.
Final two words on it: major disappointment.
BOB
Topic:
Jack Maggs (36 of 37), Read 4 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Sunday, March 19, 2000 09:23 PM
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I really enjoyed the book and
had no trouble with any of the things that drove you nuts.
Sherry
Topic:
Jack Maggs (37 of 37), Read 2 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Bob Markiewicz (bob markiewicz@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 19, 2000 09:42 PM
On 3/19/00 9:23:16 PM, Sherry Keller wrote:
>You are certainly entitled to
>your opinion.
Yes, I am, but that line sounds very defensive, Sherry, and I have no
idea why. If I'm wrong about that, I'm sorry.
Why not just provide some counterpoint to the arguments I put forth?
This is an open forum with room for differences, no?
One further think about JACK MAGGS. The Dickens/Tobias character was
truly hateful, without a single redeeming quality and it seemed especially
ironic to me that Carey would both imitate Dickens' work and paint such
an ugly portrait at the same time.
BOB
Topic:
Jack Maggs (38 of 38), Read 1 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Tonya Presley (tpresley@swbell.net)
Date:
Sunday, March 19, 2000 10:30 PM
Bob, You may end up being the only one who truly hates it, but I ain't
gonna come down in favor of it. No matter how much I keep trying to
blame this on a personal reading slump, it's starting to look more and
more like it's this book. I've been straining to get through a few pages
each evening, hoping things would turn. Nothing is turning, and keeping
this up for another 40 or 50 pages could feel torturous. I'm spinning the
towel 'round and 'round over my head right now, seriously considering
throwing it in.
Tonya
Topic:
Jack Maggs (39 of 43), Read 26 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 19, 2000 11:33 PM
Bob,
I did not find Tobias to be hateful at all. In fact I felt considerable
sympathy for this man whose neediness could never really be satisfied.
Here are a couple of passages that him more understandable to me:
Having come from no proper family himself, or none that he could
remember without great bitterness, he had for all his short,
determined life carried with him a mighty passion to create that safe
warm world he had been denied. (p.41)
...
No one who knew Tobias, not even the old actor who thought he saw
the "thunder," had any understanding of his unholy thirst for love. He
had not known it himself. He did not know the curse or gift his ma
and pa had given him: he would not be loved enough, not ever.
He never really knew this truth about himself, not even when the
fame he craved was finally, briefly, granted him and he travelled from
city to city like a one-man carnival act, feeding off the applause of his
readers. Even when it was thrown in his face, so to speak, he did not
see it.p. 43
But then, I'm kind of a soft touch for dysfunctional characters.
Ann
Topic:
Jack Maggs (40 of 43), Read 22 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Monday, March 20, 2000 03:18 AM
Bob, My only question on your post here is -- did you cave in and read
those final twenty pages in order to know the messy ending burned
the book down -- I LOVE that -- "burned the book down" -- perfect
description of what happens in far too many books!
Now about the other points -- first -- somehow the Lamb's Conduit
thing just went right past me. I think this was because I had a great
deal of difficulty getting started with JM reading (nearly stopped
before I got truly started).
So once I convinced myself that this might actually relate to GE --
then I got interested and read at breakneck speed -- letting names
just slide by unless I found I had lost track of one and then I had to
backtrack.
I think there were hints of Phipps and the footman -- but they were
so vague and even contradictory that when the revelation came -- it
did seem sort of just thrown in all at once -- could this have just been
Carey putting yet another twist to the tale? Or is he saying something
here? About the sexuality of Dickens characters or about the sexuality
of Dickens?
(Gasp -- did Dottie write that!)
The roof crawling while weird didn't bother me so much -- I think there
was a lot of roof-crawling in London then. This seems to exist in many
of the tales of the time and since the streets were running sewers
difficult to navigate in daytime and the boards used to form
overpasses to avoid the sewage were often taken up at evening I
think -- folks roaming at night may have taken the high road so to
speak.
And -- yes -- that lock down seemed a bit weak but thinking of it in a
general sense -- lock downs for disease were much more common then
and doctors were a lot less regulated, well-known and less trained and
so on -- I suppose it could have been a reality of the time. Still it
wasn't presented in such a way as to make it flow with the story.
Having said all this -- the difference is -- you started out enthused
and wound up hating all these trouble points so much so that the book
didn't work and you were disappointed. I started out having all these
trouble points which kept me outside the whole thing until I got far
enough and stopped looking at the frayed edges and read to the end
with the end result that -- while flawed, I do finally see this as
relative to Dickens and his writing and his characters in GE.
And I think Sherry's opening line was meant to convey the idea that
while what she followed with was opposed to what you said that she
didn't mean you shouldn't have said it! When it comes to books here
-- Bob -- you will find that we don't all agree all the time which is part
of the point of discussing books!
So -- what else do you want to say about JM ?
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Jack Maggs (41 of 43), Read 17 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Monday, March 20, 2000 03:40 AM
Ann -- I am a soft touch for reading dysfunctional characters also -- I
think it has to do with my real life somehow. But just the sheer weight
of sadness which those quotes imparts of a person who TRULY has no
idea of being a person who was or could ever be loved enough to fill
the gap which was laid in him in his youth. And that is what is out
there -- in countless people -- that hole which cannot be filled except
and unless they find it in themselves to fill it and keep it filled and then
create their lives. Filling that hole is NOT an easy task -- characters in
books -- aside there are plenty of writers who ARE fine writers simply
because they, too, know that gaping chasm which can never hold
enough love to keep them whole! Maybe we have this great lack of
love to thank for Dickens works as would seem to be indicated by the
intro by John Irving in my edition of Great Expectations and also by
extrapolation in JM's Tobias created by Carey in Dickens image.
Whew! That was a mouthful.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Jack Maggs (42 of 43), Read 15 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Monday, March 20, 2000 07:18 AM
Bob,
Sorry I was curt enough with my last post that you thought I was
being defensive. I was really sleepy and just wanted to put in my two
cents. I'm still sleepy (just woke up, coffee hasn't kicked in) and the
book's upstairs, and it's been a while since I read it and details are
slipping away. Different opinions are certainly welcome here. I will try
to put something cogent together and get back together with some
real details.
Sherry
Topic:
Jack Maggs (43 of 43), Read 1 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Tonya Presley (tpresley@swbell.net)
Date:
Monday, March 20, 2000 11:25 AM
If we have consensus on anything, it is that Jack Maggs is a very
different experience for each reader! Sherry loved it, Dottie started
apprehensively but finally jumped in, Bob jumped right in but was
tossed out in the details, and I'm coming in close to Bob, except that
he didn't hang in.
I finished it last night. Finally. Guess I really did want to know how all
the characters finished, and once Tobias and Jack returned to London,
Carey got things in motion again. But I'll tell you the truth, from the
lock-down to their return to London, it was just this side of impossible
to continue with. If it hadn't been a reading list book, I'd never have
made the effort.
In my first note on Jack Maggs, I said I was looking for parallels
between Pip & Estella, and Jack & Sophina, and I was disappointed
there were very few. If this were Dickens' experience, whence the
mad old jilted woman and the unattainable cold young beauty? Maybe
a part of his experience, being unable to have his sister-in-law?
I keep wondering if I'd have noticed anything of Great Expectations in
this novel without the prior knowledge. What do you all think? Would it
have been obvious?
Tonya
Topic:
Jack Maggs (44 of 44), Read 7 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Bob Markiewicz (bob markiewicz@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, March 20, 2000 11:36 AM
Tonya wrote: But I'll tell you the truth, from the lock-down to
their return to London, it was just this side of impossible to
continue with.
Very well put, Tonya, but I tell you, I felt that with a mere twenty
pages to go, I had, in fact, "read" the book.
BOB (notice I didn't say "damned thing.")
Topic:
Jack Maggs (45 of 49), Read 27 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Anne Wilfong (annewilfong@worldnet.att.net)
Date:
Monday, March 20, 2000 12:53 PM
I know I was less than impressed with a book when, despite the
failings of memory with age and stress, I barely remember it after
only a week.
JM grabbed my attention enough early on to induce sunburn while
reading it in Florida, but by the end I could barely struggle
through. I find that so annoying. I guess I couldn't really relate to
the characters, though I, too am a softie for most
dysfunctionals...and I need to relate and understand to put forth
the effort in reading.
Like Tonya, I thought it was just this long reading slump I've been
in. But I've got a good one in hand right now, I'm happy to say.
Anne in snowy Colorado
Reading is life...the rest is just details
Topic:
Jack Maggs (46 of 49), Read 15 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Monday, March 20, 2000 04:59 PM
Well, I'm starting to this was a lot more enjoyable for those of us
who just finished GREAT EXPECTATIONS. However, Ruth hasn't
read GE recently and she also described JM as a good read.
I thought this book was fun. It certainly wasn't deep, but then I
could make the same complaint about most of Dickens. It was a
New York Times "Notable Book of the Year," so those of us who
really liked it weren't alone.
Tonya, I didn't really find a parallel to the Mercy character in GE,
although she did make me think of Sonia, the prostitute with the
heart of gold in last month's CRIME AND PUNISHMENT, particularly
when her mother pushed her into prostitution because they were
starving.
Ann
Topic:
Jack Maggs (47 of 49), Read 15 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, March 20, 2000 05:04 PM
I wondered if it actually was a mistake reading Jack Maggs right
after Great Expectations. Dickens transfixed me. All the fantastic
situations, characters and plot turns that Carey was trying to use
worked wonderfully for me in GE, but mostly fell flat in JM. I
actually thought maybe I was just having one of those post-great
book reactions, but after reading the notes here, it sounds like it
may be more generalized than that.
I found that I was involved in the parts of the book that had to do
with Tobias and his wife and sister-in-law (sorry about the lack of
names; I've returned the book to the library). That excerpt that
Ann quoted about his inability to ever find enough love defined him
for me. And, I found him to be a complex, layered character
though still not as fleshed out as I would have liked.
The story of Jack Maggs childhood was fairly interesting and held
my attention. However, most of Maggs' adult years and the whole
Percy Buckle household seemed rather sketchy. I didn't really
understand what was going on most of the time and didn't actually
care. And, all of the hypnotism, bringing out of the phantom, etc.
just didn't jell. I find myself outside the story all of a sudden
thinking what a bad job Carey was doing with this
part...distracting.
I am very interested in the historical connections that Ann
included in her note. Anything more would be welcome (my love
for biography starts entering the picture here.)
Barb
Topic:
Jack Maggs (48 of 49), Read 17 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Monday, March 20, 2000 05:13 PM
I think the answer here is a good bio of Dickens -- will see if such
was mentioned in the GE intro by Irving or anywhere in my copy.
Anyone else? I think that what saved Jack Maggs for me
personally was the dawning of the Dickens' details embedded in
Tobias rather than the characters relationship to Dickens'
characters. And I was only aware of this from having just read GE
in the particular edition which my husband carted home from the
States for me -- which just happened to include that Irving intro
-- otherwise, I really think that like Bob and Tonya and others
here I might have given it up.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Jack Maggs (49 of 49), Read 2 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Tonya Presley (tpresley@swbell.net)
Date:
Monday, March 20, 2000 11:22 PM
Back to what Ruth said above, about Jack Maggs letters to
Phipps, she said no one writes letters like that. I don't know if
that's true, but I've never gotten one. Anyway, the style bothered
me a lot less than the absence of any explanation for his literacy.
Correct me if I missed it, but he started theiving when he was 4 or
5, then after they started going in through the doors he spent the
days locked in a room with Sophina or scrubbing the floors. Did he
learn to read and write in Australia? What did I miss?
Tonya
Topic:
Jack Maggs (50 of 55), Read 44 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Tuesday, March 21, 2000 06:20 AM
Tonya -- I don't remember how much of his Australia experience is
truly addressed in the book and/or that diary of a letter -- I guess
I assumed that he learned to read and write as well as working to
amass the fortune which allowed him to help Phipps along. Perhaps
something to do with his wife?
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Jack Maggs (51 of 55), Read 45 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Tuesday, March 21, 2000 07:36 AM
I think that Maggs' writing and writing wasn't exactly a letter, but
a kind of inheritance. He wanted to explain himself, so he had to
explain his life. What I found strange about it, and I suppose it
was just to show his paranoia, was that he wrote it all in mirror
writing. But as he delivered the letter with the means of
deciphering it all at the same time, it seemed kind of pointless.
I found a kind of endearing desperateness to his continuous
writing. And it didn't surprise me a bit that he was roaming the
roofs. He set himself up in Buckles' house so he could have access
to Phipps' (his own) house, and he was adept at roof-crawling
from his thieving days.
Even thought Jack Maggs had a kind of hard-edged criminal aura
about him, I liked him and cared what happened to him.
It was Buckle that I was surprised at. He started out rather benign
and sweet, sort of like Wemmick, but his basic character was
shown as something quite different when he felt threatened by
JM.
As soon as I realized that this wasn't just a sequel to GE, I judged
it entirely differently. I found it easier to read in some ways than
GE -- more modern in language while at the same time describing
an era very well.
I guess this is just one of those books that either clicks with you
or doesn't.
Sherry
Topic:
Jack Maggs (52 of 55), Read 52 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, March 21, 2000 10:49 AM
What I found unconvincing about that letter, was not that he
scribbled at it constantly, nor that he felt the need to explain his
life, but that it was not written like a letter, it was written like a
novel, with all the devices that a sophisticated novelist uses.
And Sherry, that mirror provided with the mirror writing struck me
strange, too. Not to mention the difficulty of scribbling off acres of
the stuff.
Ruth
Topic:
Jack Maggs (53 of 55), Read 37 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, March 21, 2000 05:16 PM
While I am enjoying the connection between this book and GE, I've
noticed that Carey seems inept at narrative within this novel--it
does not flow at all. It seems to be one scene after another with
little connective tissue (if any). Dickens' was a master at of
narration--the narrative flowed through Pip's life and the reader
was carried along with the flow. With Dickens, the reader was
guided from place to place without eve wondering why they were
going from A to B. The journey from A to B was simply worth
taking. Here, Carey just inserts one disconnected scene after
another. It's not even interesting in a "post-modern" sense--it just
seems shoddy narration.
I like the character of Jack Maggs. Carey has successfully fleshed
out the Magwitch present in GE. But now Magwitch as Maggs is
set in a book without that terrific sense of narrative flow--except
in those sections Maggs pens to Phipps.
If the entire book would have been written in Jack Maggs' voice,
this novel would have been tens times better. Once we leave
those letters, we enter a world of pedestrian prose and non
sequitars. And we wait for Jack to find the time to write some
more.
Dan
Topic:
Jack Maggs (54 of 55), Read 35 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, March 21, 2000 07:10 PM
I think you're onto something, Dan. While I complained that I
couldn't accept the letter as a letter, I certainly did accept it as
good fiction writing, and like you, I enjoyed it more than most of
the rest of the book.
I said before, I thought this book was a good read, but it's
certainly not without its faults, as many of you have pointed out.
BTW, I noticed today at Borders that it had made its way to the
sale table, and I thought of what Donna told us about that in the
up, up, up, thread.
Ruth
Topic:
Jack Maggs (55 of 55), Read 35 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Tuesday, March 21, 2000 08:29 PM
Ruth and Dan -- Do you think Carey may have been using Maggs
writing to contrast with what Tobias was writing based on the
sessions with Maggs which were the Maggs of the earlier life
rather than the Maggs of the life after he was reformed? Also
Tobias used this "letter" perhaps when he actually wrote the
'novel' in the book after the writings based on the sessions were
destroyed (though there were copies also weren't there? -- details
are going even as I type!) I am not sure how this would tie into
what Dickens may have done with the characters he created --
just thought of it as I read the latest posts!
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Jack Maggs (56 of 56), Read 1 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Tonya Presley (tpresley@swbell.net)
Date:
Wednesday, March 22, 2000 01:23 PM
Dottie, There were no copies of the papers Toby and Jack burned.
It was very clear that everything, even things Maggs couldn't
have dreamed of finding, was handed over and burned.
I have to agree with Ruth and Dan, too. The letter reads better
than I expect a letter to read, and it is the best part of the story
in Jack Maggs.
Tonya
Topic:
Jack Maggs (57 of 59), Read 24 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Wednesday, March 22, 2000 01:32 PM
Tonya -- I thought it was TOO clear -- and underlying the process
of Tobias going and getting this or that out to burn was this hint
of an implication that he deliberately did all this BUT -- maybe he
had something else that he didn't pull out. I will have to check to
make sure I didn't dream this feeling that Tobias was not truly on
the square with Maggs on this burning process.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Jack Maggs (58 of 59), Read 21 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Wednesday, March 22, 2000 05:11 PM
For me the all too lengthy letter was simply a literary device.
Agreed that no one would ever write such a letter. But very long
letters are used as literary devices in lots of novels, especially
older ones. They provide background information or move the plot
along. This was not meant to be a realistic novel. I think that
Carey wanted to provide the flavor of a 19th century serialized
novel. In my opinion, he succeeded.
For me, this novel had great narrative flow, evidenced by the fact
that once I started it I had a hard time putting it down. Oh, I
have to admit that after everyone got quarantined it dragged
briefly, but that didn't last long for me. I thought the book was
clever, well-written and very entertaining. I didn't take the plot
and all its many twists that seriously. I just went along for the
ride, never sure where this was all going to end up.
All of this just goes to show, I guess, that there's no accounting
for taste since some of you had completely opposite experiences.
Ann
Topic:
Jack Maggs (59 of 59), Read 21 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Wednesday, March 22, 2000 05:53 PM
You're right, Ann, about letters as literary devices, especially in
older novels. (Look at Pamela for heaven's sake.) Now that you've
brought that up, I thought a bit more on why it bothered me in
this wannabee 19th c novel, and I think perhaps it stood out in
contrast to the other writing, was by far (for me at least) the
most well-written part of the book, which called too much
attention to it for it to function well as a mere literary device.
Ruth
Topic:
Jack Maggs (60 of 60), Read 4 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, March 24, 2000 09:32 AM
Having finished Jack Maggs, I can see how Ann compares this
novel to a "ride." In the end, everything comes to a climax in a
series of chapter snapshots. I rather liked Carey's technique of
backing up his characters so that when a penultimate scene
arrives--say the Phipps' pistol shot--we arrive at the scene from
the point of view of everyone involved. We witness it first from
Jack and Mercy by the fire; we witness it again from the point of
view of Phipps and Buckle coming up the hall. The link between
them is a solitary line of dialogue which is repeated in both
scenes. I liked that touch. It's a technique used much better in
Joseph Conrad's Victory.
However, I still cannot get over the sense of this work being a
kind of patische. It seems to be great passages and great scenes
stiched together rather haphazardly. While this is a trademark of
postmodern fiction, I don't find Carey particularly adept at it. I
don't believe he was trying to write or spoof the 19th century
novel, because obviously he could do a better job of it judging by
the sample writings he created int he voices of Maggs and Oates.
No, the novel at large is largely postmodern. Carey just did not
create the effect he was striving for, I'm sure. He wanted to take
the nuances of 19th century literature and refocus it with a
postmodern lens. Instead of sharply delineating each, he blurred
the overall effect instead. Yes, "blurred" like the words "Jack
Maggs" on the dustcover of the book I purchased.
Maybe the blurring was intentional, saying much of the technique
of this novel.
Dan
|
Read a side discussion about "thief takers" and Jonathan Wild, a character mentioned in Jack Maggs
|
