Amazon.com:
Twice married and twice divorced, his magnetic looks on the wane, David Lurie rather cruelly seduces one of his students, and his conduct unbecoming is soon uncovered. In his eighth novel, J.M. Coetzee might have been content to write a searching academic satire. But in Disgrace he is intent on much more, and his art is as uncompromising as his main character, though infinitely more complex. Refusing to play the public-repentance game, David gets himself fired--a final gesture of contempt. Now, he thinks, he will write something on Byron's last years. Not empty, unread criticism, "prose measured by the yard," but a libretto. To do so, he heads for the Eastern Cape and his daughter's farm. In her mid-20s, Lucy has turned her back on city sophistications: with five hectares, she makes her living by growing flowers and produce and boarding dogs. "Nothing," David thinks, "could be more simple." But nothing, in fact, is more complicated--or, in the new South Africa, more dangerous. Far from being the refuge he has sought, little is safe in Salem. Just as David has settled into his temporary role as farmworker and unenthusiastic animal-shelter volunteer, he and Lucy are attacked by three black men. Unable to protect his daughter, David's disgrace is complete. Hers, however, is far worse.
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (9 of 46), Read 33 times
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From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 10:35 AM
Beej, I say go ahead and discuss. I'm going to be putting my
thoughts together soon, since I'll be in Boston when the "official"
day rolls around.
Sherry
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (10 of 46), Read 31 times
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From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 12:57 PM
Beej, Sherry, & All: If any book if were ever deserving of a Booker,
IMHO, this one's it. What wonderful writing. What wonderful
characters.
I'm ready to let fly whenever you guys are.
>>Dale in Ala.
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Re: DISGRACE (11 of 46), Read 36 times
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From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 01:05 PM
I agree wholeheartedly, Dale. On the jacket, someone said this
would be a classic for future generations. I think that's true. You
always hear about "coming of age stories" and usually they are
about young adults. Well, one facet of this was the coming of age
(or at least maturity and acceptance of responsibility) of someone
who is long past adulthood. Then there are the huge themes --
one being the of the guilt of a whole society, as exemplified by
the reaction of one person. So many avenues of discussion. Which
one shall we go down first?
Sherry
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (12 of 46), Read 37 times
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From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 01:30 PM
Okay, let me ask you this..which of the two do you understand
better..the father or the daughter? I just have a feeling the men
here will say they understand David, and the women will say Lucy.
Do you mind if we take a little poll here?
Beej
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (13 of 46), Read 40 times
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From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 01:32 PM
Sherry: I think the phrase "embarrassment of riches" certainly
applies to the discussion possibilities of DISGRACE.
On a personal note, I started running out of patience with Lurie
not long after the sh*t hit the fan with the disciplinary board and
he insisted on playing the smartass till the bitter end. "Principle is
one thing," I kept wanting to shout at him, "but expediency and
common sense should figure in, too."
How far was this guy willing to push it, I kept thinking, on pure
stubbornness and hubris, his best interests be damned? Then I
started thinking back on some of my reactions regarding employers
and ex-wives (not in his particular bowl of soup, thank goodness)
and felt more than a twinge of empathy/sympathy. Damn the
torpedoes; full testosterone ahead. And to think, I'm one of the
more reasonable males on the planet...{G}
Anyway, I'm looking forward to this one.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (14 of 46), Read 44 times
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From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 01:35 PM
Beej: Not just trying to waffle on answering your question, here,
but I think it's a sign of Coetzee's achievement that I cared for
and understood both David and his daughter, polar opposites they
were in so many respects, in almost equal measure.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (15 of 46), Read 42 times
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From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 01:36 PM
Dale, I found his unwillingness to give in to that committee
admirable! He was willing to take his consequences but was
unwilling to grovel, no matter what it cost him. What a man!
Beej
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (16 of 46), Read 44 times
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From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 01:37 PM
Dale, I'm glad to hear you say that. I really thought most men
would have no clue as to why Lucy did not wish to report the
rape.
Beej
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (17 of 46), Read 46 times
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From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 01:42 PM
Beej: As to Lurie and the committee again, I've found throughout
the years there's a very fine line at times between courage and
smartass-ness. {G}
With his friends on the commmittee bending over backwards to be
reasonable with him, I honestly think that if it weren't for the fact
of women on the board for him to play to, at some point he might
have cut a deal. (Which he may have regretted and/or taken back
later, but still.)
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (18 of 46), Read 43 times
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From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 01:43 PM
I do have a real problem seeing David's attraction to Melanie. I
can understand a sexual attraction toward her, but not the
emotional attraction. Is it because somehow she reminds him of
Soraya?
Beej
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (19 of 46), Read 41 times
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From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 01:51 PM
I guess the only smartassedness i saw was was when the reporter
asked him if he was sorry for having an affair with one of his
students and he replied," No.I was enriched by the experience".
But I think he meant that! I don't think the committee had any
other purpose for insisting on a full hearing other than to hear him
grovel.
Beej
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (20 of 46), Read 41 times
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From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 02:47 PM
I thought David did okay with that committee. He pleaded guilty,
what more did they want. His soul, apparently. Yes, things could
have gone more easily if he was "cooperative," but it was his
choice not to be. And what does an apology mean if it is not
heartfelt? This whole thing smacked too much of "re-education."
As for Lucy. I must be denso. Why, other than the fact that she
had to live with these people, didn't she want the rape reported?
Or was that it?
Ruth, remembering her grad school days when everyone was
sc@#$wing everyone and the devil take the hindmost. Things
have changed, haven't they?
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (21 of 46), Read 41 times
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From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 03:17 PM
Beej,
I think I understand David better than his daughter. I'm like Ruth. I
didn't understand why she wouldn't report the rape(s), unless she
had a colossal load of race guilt hanging over her head. She was
verging on having a Christ complex I thought. As for Lurie, I
thought his obsession with Melanie and Soraya were both
examples of his not having grown up. That's what I meant by a
coming of age story. His body and mind had pretty much aged
together, but his emotions were back there in his twenties. He
really didn't see himself as a fiftyish guy (and do any of us?) When
he was faced with really being a father (possibly for the very first
time) his emotions started to catch up with the rest of him.
What do you all think of the animal shelter? There has to be some
pretty heavy symbolism in there somewhere. I know I reacted
viscerally to it for reasons unknown to myself -- yet.
Sherry
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (22 of 46), Read 43 times
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From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 03:22 PM
Close Sherry, but I really wouldn't call Soroya and Melanie
obsessions as I understand how that term is usually used.
Then one day it all ended. Without warning his powers fled.
Glances that would once have responded to his slid over, past,
through him. Overnight he became a ghost. If he wanted a
woman he had to learn to pursue her; often, in one way or
another, to buy her.
This is a 52-year-old man who has defined his manhood in the
fashion described in the paragraph that precedes this. (". . .the
backbone of his life.") Clearly, he has never really defined his
manhood through his profession for which he has no real respect.
Without warning his nose is pressed right up against the glass of
his own mortality, and equally without warning women are now his
tormentors instead of what they once were. (Your days are over,
Casanova.") The fact that he is cool as a cucumber on the
outside should not deceive us about how profoundly angry he is
about all this on the inside. Pride requires that he refuse to go
quietly.
Steve
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (23 of 46), Read 43 times
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From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 03:28 PM
I guess "obsession" really wasn't the right word. But I do think the
idea of the young beautiful, adoring woman was a fixation with
him. When that door shut (and my oh my wasn't it sudden) I can
really see a cause for anger.
Now, who would this anger be aimed at? Himself? Women in
general? Everything?
Sherry
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (24 of 46), Read 41 times
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From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 03:36 PM
Sherry, I think David was just used to being able to have sex
whenever he wanted and now it wasn't quite that easy for him.
As far as Lucy not reporting the rape...I can understand that
totally. She would have suffered insurmountable consequences.
Beej
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (25 of 46), Read 46 times
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From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 03:37 PM
Okay, Beej, for those of us a little slow on the uptake, could you
spell out those insurmountable consequences?
Ruth
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (26 of 46), Read 44 times
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From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 03:40 PM
I am uncomfortable with "fixation," too. He seduced her, albeit a
bit forcefully; he didn't stalk her. However, I won't quibble.
If your ability with women has been the backbone of your life,
what do you have to show for that life at 52 when that ability is
gone? A couple of divorces. A nothing career. I don't think there is
much with which he is not angry--except perhaps his daughter.
Steve
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (27 of 46), Read 41 times
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From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 03:43 PM
I think you're right, Steve. Reminds me of those women who build
a life around the kids. Lurie's suffering a male empty nest
syndrome. And it wasn't so bad, what he did with Melanie, except
that one time when he really kind of forced himself on her.
I'm not saying it was a fair deal, the way he seduced her, but
then life isn't a fair deal. But that one time came perilously close
to rape.
Which is why I think there's a real parallel going on here. One
which we're supposed to ponder on. David doesn't quite rape
Melanie, it gets reported, he suffers consequences. The men rape
Lucy, she doesn't report it, they don't suffer consequences.
So what gives?
Ruth
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (28 of 46), Read 42 times
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From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 03:49 PM
Ruth,This is my belief... she was a white female, farming the land.
This is a time of racial disquiet. The rape was a warning, I think. If
she reported it, there would be a next time, and it would be
worse.
She wasn't going to lose that farm house over this rape. She had
the same tenacity he father did when fighting that committee.
Actually, both events are very similar in a lot of ways.
Beej
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (29 of 46), Read 43 times
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From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 03:52 PM
You know, guys, I don't see Melanie as a victim here. She slept
with her professor! Sort of like saying Monica Lewinsky was a
victim, isn't it? I don't buy it.
Beej
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (30 of 46), Read 40 times
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From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 03:58 PM
Although I have finished the book, I am going to bow out of the
discussion for awhile until it stabilizes a bit. "Rape" is a loaded
subject nowadays--big time, and a little caution is in order for me
here.
I simply wanted to state my view of David's state of mind and
viewpoint. These initial few chapters were as masterful an
introduction to a protagonist in a novel as I have run across in a
long, long time.
Steve
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (31 of 46), Read 42 times
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From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 04:07 PM
Don't bow out Steve, your insight helps me figure things out. I
really see what you're saying about how Lurie built his world
around his ability to seduce. He used words and probably tone of
voice and his intellect to bring women to his bed willingly. I don't
think for a minute that Melanie was actually "raped", but I do think
she was overpowered intellectually. I'm not quite sure that she
knew exactly what to do with him or how to turn him down.
Sherry
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (32 of 46), Read 31 times
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From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 04:16 PM
Perfect, Sherry.
Overpowered intellectually = seduced.
I didn't mean I wasn't going to say anything at all! You thought I
meant that? Me? I simply meant that I wasn't going to leap right
in the middle of the Lucy thing with both feet right away.
Steve
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (33 of 46), Read 36 times
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From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 05:24 PM
Steve: It’s good to see you joining us here, in this already
stimulating colloquy! {G}
I agree that these opening chapters are one of the fastest and
most powerful descents into a character’s heart I’ve ever read.
My mind is going in a hundred different directions, and I’ll try to
stay off my individual soapbox(es) as long as I can, but:
(1) David & Soraya & Melanie. As questionable, unwise, and/or
just plain wrong Lurie’s behavior was toward both of these women,
I think “obsession” or even “fixation” are both totally out of the
ball park for describing it. And though in both cases it would
trivialize David’s internal dilemma to say the affairs were “nothing
personal,” I think there’s a grain of truth there.
In any event, I don’t think any physical resemblance of Melanie to
Soraya (a glancing reference to dark skin/hair, as I recall) played
a part in David’s choices. The two women certainly held nothing in
common for him, emotionally, EXCEPT...they were both “unknown
quantities,” i.e. fantasies of a sort, at one time or another, over
which he could exercise some limited measure of emotional
control. Soraya became “known” when he saw her with her kids.
Melanie never became “known,” because so many other of her
family/friends intervened so quickly to start legal proceedings.
The one detail of David’s/Melanie’s interaction that most stands
out for me (opening of Chapter Four), ironically enough, also
stands out for the narrator/author:
...One moment stands out in recollection, when she hooks a leg
behind his buttocks to draw him in closer: as the tendon of her
inner thigh tightens against him, he feels a surge of joy and
desire. Who knows, he thinks: there might, despite all, be a
future.
There might, despite all, be a future.
The obvious assumption is that he means a future for his and
Melanie’s unlikely and ill-fated relationship. But I submit (didn’t Rod
Serling used to say that?) that David is saying there might be a
future, in that fleeting moment, for his life: at least for his sexual
self-esteem and his imagination, which at the age of 50 or so
sometimes temporarily constitute knowable life.
At the risk of poking fun at my gender, I might also suggest that
the beginning and ending of the bizarre “One moment...”
paragraph above can at times seem a most logical and rational
thought process to a well-educated 50-ish male.
Got to go meet some deadlines, grill some dinner, and greet my
(50-ish, hallelujah!) beloved. But I’ll be back. That’s a promise,
and a threat. What a hell of a book Coetzee has written.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (34 of 46), Read 34 times
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From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 05:36 PM
Oh, Dale, clearly he is talking about his life. Not for a second is he
contemplating some real partnership with this little gal. He has
seen smooth skin and felt rippling muscles again for the first time
in a long time without having paid cash on the barrel head for it!
There may really be a little something left! (Notwithstanding the
fact that he did have to force the issue a bit this time.)
Steve
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (35 of 46), Read 32 times
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From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 05:38 PM
Boy, am I really glad you guys cleared this up for me. I (dumb ole
me) really thought he meant a future with HER, and I was
scratching my head. Your take makes perfect sense.
Sherry
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (36 of 46), Read 36 times
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From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 05:41 PM
What Sherry said.
Ruth, with limited experience as a man
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (37 of 46), Read 34 times
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From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 06:14 PM
And see that it stays that way.
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (38 of 46), Read 36 times
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From:
Mary Anne Papale (mapreads@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 07:27 PM
I, too, related more with Lurie than his daughter in many ways.
Perhaps this attributable to my years with daughters who don't
want to do the sensible or rational thing.
Here's something I noticed in the way of symbolism. There was
quite a bit of sexual activity going on on Lucy's beds, both in her
current home and in her father's home. We know that rape took
place on Lucy's bed in the country. So what is Coetzee trying to
say about the sex on Lucy's bed in David's home? Surely it's not
rape. I like the word "overpowering".
No one has mentioned the sex with Bev. What was that about?
And we've got to discuss the stuff about the dogs.
There's so much to talk about.
Metaphors be with you... MAP
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (39 of 46), Read 36 times
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From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@hotmail.com)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 09:06 PM
Well, I for one, felt that Melanie did not EVER want to have sex
with David, but she felt somehow obliged to do so because he was
her teacher. Maybe, it is the teacher in me, but I felt very
uncomfortable when I was reading this scene. David himself
mentions that it was all a mistake to seduce her. I know that one
of the times, she was about as passionate as a dishrag. It was
very close to rape.
I understood David very well, but I am not sure that I understand
Lucie and why she doesn't want to start a new life somewhere
else.
I, too, want to talk about the "dog" thing. David seemed like the
guide across the River Styx when he was making sure that the
dogs were properly burned.
Jane
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (40 of 46), Read 40 times
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From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 10:17 PM
I wasn't uncomfortable with the Melanie/David sex thing. Maybe
it's because I have a history of falling for my teachers, maybe it's
because (as I said before) I went to grad school when everybody
was sleeping withe everybody.
At any rate, David may have had the advantage, because he was
older and more experienced at seduction, but Melanie wasn't
exactly forced into it. With the exception of that one scene, that
came pretty close to rape, she looked like an uncertain, but willing
participant to me.
Don't forget that we are never privy to exactly what Melanie said
in her charge, nor do we know whether or not it was purely
voluntary. How much was the charge something that Melanie
wanted to do, and how much was it the product of either the
creepy boyfriend or the father?
Ruth
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (41 of 46), Read 34 times
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From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Monday, September 11, 2000 11:33 PM
(rape is very very rude men getting laid)
Um we can see right away what David 'gets' from having sex with
his student....but the writer doesnt point out or remind us what a
student 'gets' from having sex with a prof. Youre right to remind
us of times when this was de riguer Ruth. A student is able to
enter a world it takes years of 'paying dues' to live. The good wine
the exotic accomplished intellectual company, maybe in some
cases easy grades(but thats a minor bemnefit, usually these
students are already brilliant as well as beautiful!)Well I could list
but it doesnt really matter, its not a big part of this story.
The link between Lucys bed with her dad and her own adult bed?
Well, I totally support how David approached his interview with
the university. I think he was absolutely right to stand against
them and also admit that he
enjoyed his student relationships etc. But
he was also attacked, Lucys rape is also part of his attack to, one
was not worse his punch or the fire setting than her attack of
rape.
During his time with Melanie although hes a smart dude he is not
connected to the reality that Melanie is not just Melanie and his
relationship with her is also extended to her family...to HER dad.
Its almost like hes completely out of it that its natural and normal
for her father to behave defending her, in fact if he was more
connected to that, and compassionate because of his kid thenhe
might not have ever got involved with his students.
I wonder if he had sex in his daughters room just to have 'straight
sex' in there...just an idea, more later...
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (42 of 46), Read 19 times
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From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Tuesday, September 12, 2000 07:24 AM
I really think Melanie knew exactly where they would end up when
she went to his apartment that first time...He invites her to stay
for dinner. What does he make? Anchovies on tagliatelle with
mushroom sauce. Well, if a man invited ME, at any age, to stay at
his place for dinner, and he served me anchovies, and I still
stayed, it wouldn't be for his cooking skills...sounds fishy to
me...:-)
Beej
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (43 of 46), Read 18 times
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From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Tuesday, September 12, 2000 07:58 AM
Perhaps we are making too big a deal out of this Melanie affair. I
think the act was not as important as the consequences of the
act.
It was important, just not as important, in my opinion. I'm more
intrigued by his relationship with Bev. I feel he thinks he is doing
her a favor. And that really bothers me.
Beej
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (44 of 46), Read 16 times
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From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Tuesday, September 12, 2000 08:40 AM
I don't think he was doing Bev a favor, Beej. I see it as part of his
growing up process, of seeing himself more accurately. He was
living in a dream world before, where he courted and bed lovely
young women (so in some part of his mind he thought HE was a
lovely young man). Don't you think the partners we choose reflect
our self-image? When his self-image was shattered; when he saw
himself truly, even though Bev was plain and had what was to him
a ridiculous name (isn't it strange that he made judgements on her
name?) I think he realized that life can indeed go on.
Sherry
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (45 of 46), Read 16 times
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From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Tuesday, September 12, 2000 08:48 AM
As far as the Melanie affair is concerned, Beej, I think it serves as
a "foreground" piece that at the outset rubs our noses in the fact
that these things can be very ambiguous and very difficult to
judge. Coetzee is just preparing us--getting our heads right--for
the whole episode involving the daughter.
Steve
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (46 of 46), Read 9 times
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From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, September 12, 2000 09:27 AM
Candy: I realized that Melanie in his daughter's old bed was a
complex and emotionally charged prospect for David, but I think
you're right, it being straight sex when his daughter is a lesbian
really ups the emotional ante.
This paragraph, of David reflecting on his daughter's sex life, really
resounded with me:
Is his presence here keeping Lucy and Helen apart? Would they
dare to share a bed while he was in the house? If the bed
creaked in the night would they be embarrassed? Embarrassed
enough to stop? But what does he know about what women do
together? Maybe women do not need to make beds creak. And
what does he know in particular about these two, Lucy and
Helen? Perhaps they sleep together merely as children do,
cuddling, touching, giggling, reliving girlhood--sisters more than
lovers. Sharing a bed, sharing a bathtub, baking gingerbread
cookies, trying on each other's clothes...
To which I'm thinking, 'tis a consummation devoutly to be wish'd.
Childhood and closeness, without the sex to keep messing things
up.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (47 of 83), Read 57 times
Conf:
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From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Tuesday, September 12, 2000 11:47 AM
I agree that not too much should be made of the Melanie thing
other than for us to really understand where this guys head
is...the Lucy bed thing is an arrow the Melanie thing is an
arrow...(he had forgot that the Melanies have dad, just like
him)and even that Melanie and his daughter are only a couple
years apart in age.
(this is all on a side note, I am digging this story partly because of
personal memories of my dad staying with me one time for a few
weeks. It is something he NEVER would normally have done and
was after one of his marriages was over . My daughter and I were
staying with a good friend with AIDS in a big warehouse and my
dad came and stayed while he was figuring out what he was going
to do and he was working in our city-it now so many years later
seems utterly unbelievable that my dad was so open to do this
situation, he was a real trooper, I dont know if he even knew
anybody gay before that, he was heartbroken when our friend
died-had a soft spot for that time in the crazy artsy
warehouse...then just to bore ya all some more with ME-I used to
work in a vet, and guess what one of my jobs was, thats right
hauling the plastic bags down to the freezer and then rearranging
the contents to fit the new bags. Sometimes I thought I could
feel cat and dog ghosts down there)
Candy the tangent freak but digging this book, note to self, never
go to south Africa...
p.s. anybody remember the forum Harpers had on sex in faculty
and students?
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (48 of 83), Read 58 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, September 12, 2000 12:18 PM
Candy: Never fear...your tangents always brighten my day.
In addition, you may have come up with the ultimate 8-word
synopsis of DISGRACE:
Note to self: never go to South Africa.
No sh*t. Nope, I don't remember the Harper's forum on
teacher/student sex. Could you refresh my memory?
In the interest of full disclosure, here, I just realized that my first
ex-wife, soon after ditching me and winning custody of our son,
quickly rebounded by marrying one of my (male) ex-students.
Lasted about 2 years. I, meanwhile, rebounded by marrying one of
my (female) ex-students. Lasted 16 years.
Moral? Time sure flies when you're having fun. {G}
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (49 of 83), Read 53 times
Conf:
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From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Tuesday, September 12, 2000 03:54 PM
Dale, it was about 5 years ago, it was a pretty good discussion,
but it might take a while to track it down at a library...
Its weird to me how this book ties into themes in Women In Love
to me about dissolution, and letting go, I would think in some
ways for love and peace to be more practical and possible when
there is a dissolution. For anyone trying to understand Lucy, I
think you have to see that she understands people in a very
accepting way, she really has accepted the ways of South
Africa.(of culture and tribes for lack of a different way to say it,
sorry, for the way the world really works) To live in a kind of
peace she has to accept the terms of peace that are defined by
her neighbours. I mean I dont see why right from the start she
didnt live with a gun 24-7, and her little dog too!
Her father was completely ineffectual and lived in an academic
haze. This shows how utterly impotent academia and
intellectualism are in the real workings of the world. For all his
study of poetry, he was like the scientist who brings his own
conclusions to the experiment therefore blinding himself from
observing. He seemed to miss al the poetry of his life...I am very
happy he went to look after the dogs...I mean he was starting to
understand the world and see that you cant force it, force the
rules. Uh I the only part I didnt get was the whole gun thig, why
not spend the money on the farm/land to make it 'safe' a
bigfence, guns, her dad offered her the money. But really she has
optedfor a more real existence. If her dad was not to protect her
and live with her, then she had a new dad, Petrus. These people
had a community, an understanding. David would probably take a
long time to 'get this' as his life had been all about destroying or
ignoring or opting out of community-except for this idea of a cold,
mute, materialistic(hee hee cant resist the WIL terms) world of
community that a university functions under. No wonder there is
this lust between 'enemies'(the teachers and students)
the training of kids to be cold, mute, materialistic.
I dont mean to be too hard on David, because he made me laugh
and this is a happy story really...he is so closer to living. How
come he doesnt see he is in a tribe agreement with the Shaws?
Whats so different between that and Petrus. I mean, I have to
just laugh at this studier of poetry that has no EYE for poetry at
all. His daughter could have a real choice of getting a farm
somewhere like where
her family long ago came from, its clear its more than the land she
wants...she wants this community! where Petrus is the leader or
father whatever he is. Its not even that weird to me that she
keeps the baby, its that its so radical and politically incorrect to
have this lesbian decide to give in to this world of men and old
rules of community.
It is wild how he lived for such a long time immune to the violence
of living. All of a sudden NOW he sees what life really is, its not an
ivory tower of academia(hey has any one ever read Fowles Poor
Koko? about the academic who has all his book burned by a
robber?). It was a freak show that he lived for 50 years without
the shit hitting the fan and the real world grabbing him, nature
grabbing him, his whole life was a walk in the park...Lucy just
learned nature in her twenties, he in his fifties.
I think they are both totally cool people, is it possible to imagine
them actually enjoying them selves and Petrus' family in the
future?
Having fun even? Being a family?
Me? Im a chicken Id be on the next plane...
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (50 of 83), Read 51 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, September 12, 2000 08:39 PM
Jeeze, BJ, I'd follow any man home if he promised me anchovies on
pasta.
Ruth
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (51 of 83), Read 49 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Tuesday, September 12, 2000 08:44 PM
You really eat those little hairy fish, Ruth?
Beej
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (52 of 83), Read 50 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, September 12, 2000 09:22 PM
On pasta, on pizza, on a good hunk of crusty bread drizzled with a
little lemon, straight outta the can while standing in the kitchen...
I was much more uncomfortable with Lurie's sexual relationship
with Bev. He looked down on her, he didn't find her sexually
attractive, he was uncomfortable with many of her passionate
beliefs, he didn't even bother to give her any anchovies.
Ruth
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (53 of 83), Read 51 times
Conf:
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From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Tuesday, September 12, 2000 09:53 PM
My God, Ruth, you quibble over the man's one, decent gesture?
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (54 of 83), Read 48 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, September 12, 2000 10:44 PM
So what was his decent gesture? The anchovies or the blanket on
the clinic floor?
I vote for the anchovies.
Poor Bea. She may have been a bit of a nut, but she deserved
better.
Ruth
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (55 of 83), Read 48 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Wednesday, September 13, 2000 07:00 AM
Ruthie, earlier you posed this question:
Which is why I think there's a real parallel going on here. One
which we're supposed to ponder on. David doesn't quite rape
Melanie, it gets reported, he suffers consequences. The men rape
Lucy, she doesn't report it, they don't suffer consequences.
So what gives?
I thought that was a great question at the time and should have
said so. I am saying that now. It is not simply a coincidence that
the story of Lucy is preceded by the episode of David and
Melanie. There are undoubtedly multiple facets to the answer to
this question.
Part of what is going on, I think, is that we move from a more
refined--perhaps overly refined--civilized world of academia to a
world where civilization (for lack of a better term) does not have
much of a grip at all.
While I understand Coetzee was an opponent of apartheid, he
clearly is making some statement here about a post-apartheid
South Africa that has slipped into a kind of anarchy outside the
few big urban centers. Civilization's writ does not really extend
into these places. If one chooses to live there, one must accept
that, as Lucy obviously has.
Steve
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (56 of 83), Read 50 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 13, 2000 07:02 AM
I don't like David's attitude toward Bev at all. Immediately after
their first sexual encounter he thinks:
"Let me not forget this day...this is what I will have to get used
to, this and even less than this."
He feels he is doing his duty "so that in the end Bev Shaw can feel
pleased with herself".
What is this? His attempt at chivalry? Oh please...
Beej
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (57 of 83), Read 50 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Wednesday, September 13, 2000 07:21 AM
Geez, Beej, I thought this was a sign of great development in his
character. He's finally growing up. And yes, it is a form of chivalry.
You are a hard woman!
Steve
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (58 of 83), Read 52 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Wednesday, September 13, 2000 07:33 AM
Ruthie, the other thing that is going on here, I think, is this. Lucy
has attached herself to the land. However, this is Africa.
Therefore, she is going to be assimilated by Africa, forcefully if
necessary. What greater assimilation than the rape and this
resulting child?
While I am not demeaning the trauma of this for Lucy, it is a
bargain she is quite willing to strike. David is incapable of
understanding this, and hence her impatience with him.
Steve
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (59 of 83), Read 53 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 13, 2000 07:49 AM
Steve, I agree totally with you. This(half African) baby will
definitely ease the way for Lucy to become accepted into this
"society". She realizes this, and though it takes almost the entire
length of the pregnancy, David finally realizes it also. He says:
"It will be, after all, a child of this earth. They will not be able to
deny that."
And to me, the operative word here, is THEY...
Beej
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (60 of 83), Read 52 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Wednesday, September 13, 2000 07:52 AM
Yes, you're quite right. He does come to accept this. You're quite
right to correct me on this.
And so, finally, David develops a little grace--arising out of a
disgrace. (Jesus, I feel florid this morning!)
Steve
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (61 of 83), Read 46 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 13, 2000 11:11 AM
Steve, the more I think about it, the more I see what you are
saying in regards to David's affair with Bev. He may think he's
performing a duty, but at least he's thinking of the woman's needs
instead of just his own.
Okay, I concede (somewhat) on this point.
Beej
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (62 of 83), Read 43 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Mary Anne Papale (mapreads@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 13, 2000 07:05 PM
I, like Ruth, am still bothered by the sex with Bev. In this book,
sexual encounters appear to be the decoys for real relationships.
These encounters with Bev may seem like David finally getting
decent. But coming as they do after a day of killing and bagging
unwanted dogs, I don't believe things are as they appear. Coetzee
goes to great lengths to make Bev have this strange occupation.
Which, of the many disgraces in this book, is the one referenced
in the title?
Metaphors be with you... MAP
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (63 of 83), Read 38 times
Conf:
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From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 13, 2000 11:08 PM
All day I was thinking about this book, I think its up in my top
faves of the past year right behind Plainsong.(I love making lists!)
Uh, the dogs are not an act of disgrace, its not pretty to hear
about it I agree but they are helping the dogs in many ways,
giving them a a different end to a life that is nothing how people
treat dogs here. Be careful not to be too sentimental about their
'life'. Its not as pets. There isnt any pretty way to perform their
euthanasia. Sorry.
I liked it that David was hooked up with Bev, I found it kind of
cute. I mean this guy was so critical, he was the height of
academic snobbery on so many things, his music, his wine, he
used the word hefty at least a couple of times to describe women.
He was pretty judgemental. I dont think he was plugging his nose
when he was with Bev, I think he was attracted to her in a new
way that he felt he had to compare to his past affairs. I didnt
think he sounded too sexy in his sex with Melanie, ugh the cheesy
music and wine PUHLEESE, she was a kid, it was almost
embarrassing him being such a geezer with a hot chick! He could
have at least played jazz(hee hee that was for you Steve).
Uh I also didnt see Petrus life and structure as anarchy. I thought
it seemed like a pretty tight situation, do you think any old guy is
gonna be making passes at his offspring in the future? I doubt
it...they would know better because it is a community. Maybe not
like Englands or the States or Canada, but a structure and
community all the same. I think she made a smart decision to
choose a way of living that was safer than ours. We arent that
safe from rape here in North America as she was going to be for
the rest of her life, she'll probably be able to walk home at night.
Man this is such a mind boggler of a book to me, not at all the
ending I could have anticipated...really wild.
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (64 of 83), Read 33 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Friday, September 15, 2000 06:25 AM
I don't think we can be too hard on him for using the word "hefty,"
which really is a polite word. However, Minx, he was anything but
sexy in his dealings with Melanie. You are quite right, and David
knows it, too.
The most difficult chapter for me--difficult to handle--is Nineteen
wherein he goes to visit the Isaacs family. He explains to Mr.
Isaacs that he failed to supply the "lyrical" in his relations with
Melanie. (As if this Isaacs would understand what he is saying!)
Wow, was it ever painful for some reason to read of him kneeling
and placing his forehead on the floor in front of Mrs. Isaacs and
Desirée!
MAP continues to be troubled by the deal with Bev. While he
certainly seems to see himself supplying some passion for her in
her life, he repeatedly alludes to the fact that he himself has no
passion any more. He brings nothing lyrical to that either. In fact
this is the very reason, I think, that he cannot successfully finish
the chamber opera. ("Even when I burn, I don't sing. . .")
MAP, I am still at a loss with regard to this business of putting the
dogs down. However, I sense that it does not have as grim an
effect upon me as it does you. There is something gentle and
touching about it. When he carries the three-legged dog in to be
disposed of before its time. . . .well, I need to consider that more.
However, he would have been well advised, I think, to scrap the
chamber opera about Byron and do a chamber opera about putting
dogs down.
Steve
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (65 of 83), Read 31 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Friday, September 15, 2000 07:04 AM
This book has I think. a dual theme.One is the story of David and
Lucy..the human story. But I think Coetzee is running an entirely
separate them here, and that is the treatment of animals, and the
disgrace, if you will, of an indifference, a hardheartedness toward
an animal whose fate has been negatively sealed. David has a
hard time dealing with Petrus' sheep, which are about to be
slaughtered for the party. They are tethered and unfed. David
takes them to graze. The dogs Bev puts down, have been
neglected until it is too late too save them. She knows their
owners will slaughter them in a way that will not be very humane.
Both of these people express a kindness toward these animals, to
allow them to die with less suffering.
Coetzee may be using this animal theme as another way to show
the cultural differences. But somehow I think it has a deeper
purpose. I think perhaps it shows another aspect of the South
Africans' basic nature to disregard empathy if that empathy
interferes with survival. They do not consider the suffering
inflicted. Neither with the treatment of animals nor the raping of
an innocent woman .
Beej
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (66 of 83), Read 34 times
Conf:
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From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Friday, September 15, 2000 12:01 PM
In skimming through this novel, I suddenly see a re-use of the
word "obligation". As I apply this to various happenings
throughout, I tend to think David's problems in regards to almost
every aspect of his life with the exception of Lucy, come from an
unwillingness to go beyond only what is obligatory, such as in the
case with the investigating committee. But then he meets Bev.
And he goes beyond obligation. He considers her feelings. He
takes the bodies of the dogs to the incinerator himself.He feeds
Petrus' goats. And at 52, he begins to develop not only passion
but beyond that and into compassion.And prior to this was he not
more like the South Africans who only dealt with survival?
Beej
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (67 of 83), Read 39 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Friday, September 15, 2000 12:21 PM
Beej: "Obligation"! Yes. What a dark, and recurring, mirror that
concept is throughout this book.
I would also point out that both David and Lucy are, in genetic
temperament, what modern-day psychologists would call
"strong-willed," and what my family, during my growing-up years,
called "hard-headed." A quality that can achieve either glorious or
tragic results, or both. Small wonder that this shared genetic trait
would lead father and daughter, via wildly divergent
circumstances, to become virtually incomprehensible to one
another at some point.
I well recall the time, many years ago, when a friend told me he'd
often heard the maxim "The world belongs to the single-minded,"
but never grasped the full impact until his pre-teen daughter
decided she WOULD become a concert pianist, and nothing could
stand in her way. The world may belong to the single-minded, but
so do many various hells, I think.
And speaking of David's latter awakenings toward Bev, the dogs,
and more, and the previous detail in which Coetzee writes that
the society's "old" language is virtually useless in its turbulent new
incarnation, I don't think it's any accident that the novel's title
contains in it one of the most beautiful words in any language:
"grace."
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (68 of 83), Read 34 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Friday, September 15, 2000 12:32 PM
Dale! Listen to this and tell me what your reaction is...I just
looked up the meaning of disgrace in the dictionary, just to see all
the implications of that word, and decided to look up "dis"...and
found another definition out of the norm:
"dis- a prefix meaning twice, double."
So possibly Coetzee has a bit of a double entendre here.
disgrace as a dishonor and disgrace as a doubling of
grace..Interesting, isn't it?
Beej
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (69 of 83), Read 39 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Friday, September 15, 2000 12:42 PM
Beej: Wow! Fireworks in my muddled brain, here. What a brilliance
of the language, that the same prefix could mean either a dishonor
or a doubling of grace.
Makes me think all these folks nowadays saying "Hey, don't diss
me..." should consider all the implications. {G}
As to another thread here, on "sustaining," I'm suddenly reminded
that one of my most sustaining CDs is "Journey of Dreams," by the
wonderful a cappella African folk group Ladysmith Black Mambazo,
who are joined by Paul Simon, on the final cut, to sing "Amazing
Grace." Life doesn't get much better than listening to that one.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (70 of 83), Read 30 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ian Marks (comfortably_numb@ecosse.net)
Date:
Friday, September 15, 2000 04:07 PM
Folks ~~
I'm catching up on posts (it's been a busy week); herewith some
fairly random observations on your comments so far:
Beej: I agree entirely with you on the committee scene, a short
but very powerful segment of the story. There are people like
those in every institution/workplace. I'm sure we all have our own
little list... More power to David for flipping them a mental finger.
>>I really thought most men would have no clue as to why Lucy
did not wish to report the rape.<<
I still don't, and believe me, I've tried. Don't wanna get too
soapboxish, but when I read something like this (i.e. Lucy's
stance)
I just have to shake my head in puzzlement. It's almost as though
there should be justice for rape victims without the crime being
reported. (Hope that last sentence doesn't come across as
offensive; it's not intended to be.)
>>I do have a real problem seeing David's attraction to Melanie. I
can understand a sexual attraction toward her, but not the
emotional attraction.<<
Having let the dust settle a bit, I do see an emotional attraction
bubbling under the surface. Dare we go out on a limb and suggest
that David had found "love" (however you choose to define that
word), but was up against the unwritten "rule" of society which
says that men don't get involved with women 30 years their
junior? The more I think about this episode, the sorrier I become
for David. Really. Echoes here of Meursault and his position
vis-à-vis society's norms / expectations.
>>When that door shut (and my oh my wasn't it sudden) I can
really see a cause for anger.<<
Sherry: Not just (or so much) anger, but also great sadness. I
think that's what drove him to visit Melanie's family later on.
Steve & Sherry: David's ability to seduce - I'm starting to feel
that, with the Melanie episode, he had realised that life is not all
about notches on the bedpost. As I said above, I have this gut
feeling that he realised that there was more there than he had at
first perhaps thought / expected, and, having found it, arbitrary
rules and regulations took it away from him. Just a thought.
>>clearly he is talking about his life. Not for a second is he
contemplating some real partnership with this little gal.<<
Steve: Disagree! q.v. Maybe for the first couple of tumbles, but...
Enough for one post!! More later (unless anyone flays me). I do
agree - it is one ace of a book.
Ian
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (71 of 83), Read 30 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Friday, September 15, 2000 10:25 PM
The dogs, wow, I'm surprised that this is well, you've made some
good points here, all, about what does it mean. I want to be very
careful to not say that some of the people in South Africa are just
thinking about survival and therefore they aren't caring about the
dogs. For one thing a lot of other cultures are not into
dogs/cats/pets like we are in North America. I think the act with
the dogs has to do with peoples potential for stewardship. In
Canada we have a lot of political issues with First
Nations(aboriginals)..and what they do with the land that is
returned to them form the government etc. To me the care for
the dogs is an extended kind of responsibility from first Africa
ending apartheid. The white rule returning to majority rule and
then perhaps the whites practicing a kind of stewardship with the
domestic animals like dogs that are very European kind of
concept. I dont know if Im making sense here, I dont know how to
explain what Im thinking of with this and the dogs but there is a
gist.
I think the euthanasia and the extreme and perhaps harsh
descriptions may be distracting form the actual care or
kindness/mercy Bev is trying to practice. There is nothing different
occurring with the dogs euthanasia there with Bev than what
occurs here in North America. I think thats important to consider
in their behaviour.
Oh man, I have been helping a friend at their book store and have
been selling this book left right and centre!!! I am so blown away
by this book.
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (72 of 83), Read 31 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Saturday, September 16, 2000 07:03 AM
Ian, I have come off my hard stance concerning David's intentions
with Melanie. Your disagreement is apt. Chapter Nineteen deals
with what for me was David's heartrending visit to the Isaacs'
household. (I mentioned the impact of this chapter before.) There
David speaks to Melanie's father on this very subject:
. . . .It could have turned out differently, I believe, between to
the two of us, despite our ages. But there was something I failed
to supply, something'--he hunts for the word--'lyrical. . . .
I believe now as you do. This thing with Melanie started out as
one thing--that which I described earlier--and turned into another
thing--this.
Steve
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (73 of 83), Read 31 times
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READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Saturday, September 16, 2000 07:07 AM
Candy, this dog thing in Disgrace is really starting to fascinate me,
as I gather it is fascinating you.
I have always felt that the ending of The English Patient is the
greatest ending in any contemporary novel I have read. However,
this thing with the three-legged dog in Disgrace may rival that
one.
Now all I need to do is sort it out, and I am sure I will with the
able assistance of present company.
Steve
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (74 of 83), Read 31 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ian Marks (comfortably_numb@ecosse.net)
Date:
Saturday, September 16, 2000 03:41 PM
>>. . . .It could have turned out differently, I believe, between to
the two of us, despite our ages. But there was something I failed
to supply, something'--he hunts for the word--'lyrical. . . .
Steve ~~
A good and apposite quote. When I read the book, I wondered
what sort of palooka David was for knocking on the Isaacs' door.
Was he a masochist, expecting (or hoping for) a sock on the jaw
as atonement for his 'indiscretions'? But now that a couple of
months have elapsed since reading it, I find it keeps buzzing
around in my head, and my mind is taken up by what David
(perhaps) realised was really going on emotionally. As a colleague
at work once remarked many years ago re a similar situation where
an older man he knew had become besotted by a much younger
woman (there was nothing sexual involved): "Getting older doesn't
stop those felings; it just makes them so much harder to deal
with."
If ever a true word was spoken...
Ian
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (75 of 83), Read 33 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Saturday, September 16, 2000 03:49 PM
Ian: You get enough older, you deal with them by just laying down
for a nap.
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (76 of 83), Read 34 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Saturday, September 16, 2000 11:30 PM
Yeah, well I think Ill go read that ending again...
Um, are you all, Ian and Steve saying that David was feeling in
love with Melanie and thats why he went to the Isaacs house?
That was a very uncomfortable scratchy part of the book to me...
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (77 of 83), Read 20 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ian Marks (comfortably_numb@ecosse.net)
Date:
Sunday, September 17, 2000 01:11 PM
Candy ~~
Don't know about David being in love, but I think he wanted to
convey to the Isaacses (what a plural!) that he had come to
realise that he felt something for their daughter, as the quote
which Steve posted indicates.
Ian
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (78 of 83), Read 19 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ian Marks (comfortably_numb@ecosse.net)
Date:
Sunday, September 17, 2000 01:19 PM
While much is made of the relationship between David and
Melanie, and the effect he has on her, what about the relationship
between her boyfriend and her? The b.f.'s fleeting appearances
portray him as a shadowy, Svengali-type figure and, in his last
encounter with Lurie, a downright unpleasant sort. I just wonder if
her (longer-term, one assumes) relationship with him was doing
her more harm than her brief relationship with Lurie. Whether aye
or no, it is ironic that there are no statutes to cover relationships
between students and their peers!!
Ian
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (79 of 83), Read 19 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ian Marks (comfortably_numb@ecosse.net)
Date:
Sunday, September 17, 2000 01:22 PM
WHAT I WANT TO KNOW...
How many members of that committee were squeaky clean!? Oh
boy, would I love to dig up some dirt on them, especially Dr
Farodia Rassool (if I hadn't put my fist through her arrogant puss
already...)
Right, I'm off to calm down now.
Ian
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (80 of 83), Read 18 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ian Marks (comfortably_numb@ecosse.net)
Date:
Sunday, September 17, 2000 01:37 PM
Just found the passage I was looking for re Melanie's boyfriend for
my earlier post on him. It's in ch.4, p.30, of my copy (Vintage
p/b):
"He is tall and wiry; he has a thin goatee and an ear-ring; he
wears a black leather jacket and black leather trousers. He looks
older than most students; he looks like trouble."
Note that second-last clause. We're not told how much older, but
could it be that Melanie is drawn to the older man? Alas, we can
only speculate. And, as I said before, there are no statutes
concerning relationships between older non-staff and students.
David's only 'crime' (I don't want to use that word, but you know
what I mean) is not who he is, but what he is.
A follow-up to the boyfriend's appearance is of relevance (p.31):
"...his (Lurie's) car, parked in the street, is vandalized. The tyres
are deflated, glue is injected into the doorlocks, newspaper is
pasted over the windscreen, the paintwork is scratched."
Revenge? Sure, but also indicative of a type of mentality. Not
everyone would have reacted in such a manner. Nope, there is
something about that boyfriend that I don't like. For want of a
better phrase, bad blood.
Ian
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (81 of 83), Read 22 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Sunday, September 17, 2000 01:23 PM
Amen, Ian. Clearly, when Melanie came to David's place to stay
the night, it was because she was having big time trouble with
that boyfriend and had nowhere else to go, even though that was
not stated explicitly.
Steve
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (82 of 83), Read 22 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Sunday, September 17, 2000 01:32 PM
As for the committee, Ian, easy does it. I suspect that they were
all squeaky clean. The worst people, in the sense of the most
implacably judgmental, usually have never gotten out of the house
themselves and therefore have no feel whatsoever for human
frailty.
Steve
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (83 of 83), Read 18 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Sunday, September 17, 2000 01:31 PM
ha, Ian that's funny.
About the dog, I think the dog is David accepting his mortality and
the power of nature and environment over the power of
intellectualism or else its merging with intellect and nature. The
dog will never know in a month of Sundays that that room is for
its ending..."It will be beyond him, this room that is not a room but
a hole where one leaks out of existence."
He is also thinking of the world, of life and
the 'room' of nature where we all know it is beyond us, no matter
how much we learn, we don't know what death is. 'where one
leaks out of existence' is also a reminder of the body, its frailty
and its final release of well, body fluids when they leak out of us
at death...(sorry for being gross, but I think that was writers
intent with that reference).
David is really in tune now with some of the ways that life
works...he is giving up the dog, giving up is a kind of grace, not
fighting how the world of nature works and our responsibilities as I
said earlier he accepts the stewardship that humans are able to
choose to a degree in life with nature and animals.
I hope that's the same dog anybody meant, there were so many
dog references...
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (84 of 86), Read 26 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Mary Anne Papale (mapreads@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, September 18, 2000 12:14 PM
You're right, Candy, that there are so many dog references.
I am not at all disturbed by the euthanasia references. But I certainly do
find it of interest that Coetzee has chosen to have these particular
moments turn into David having sex with Bev. Surely the combination is
no accident.
Beej, I love your comments on survival. They ring true.
Metaphors be with you... MAP
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (85 of 86), Read 22 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Tuesday, September 19, 2000 03:37 PM
I keep forgetting to mention something here. The initial episodes in the
book remind me very much of a play by David Mamet called Oleanna. Has
anyone else seen it?
The play is a two-act, two-person one and a fascinating study of the
ambiguities of this faculty and student issue. I don't want to belabor that
all here, but see the play if you ever have a chance.
Steve
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (86 of 86), Read 9 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Robert Armstrong (rla@nac.net)
Date:
Wednesday, September 20, 2000 07:43 AM
I finished this last night. The book works on two levels for me: one, the
personal story of the characters; and two: the disgrace experienced by
white South Africans in their post apartheid culture. Disgrace is
something white South Africans have been experiencing, on an
international scale, for decades, and I think the theme resonates
powerfully for them. I kept seeing the story line as a national metaphor,
as well as an engrossing tale which holds up on its own.
To me, the Isaacs family represents American or international judgement:
proper, moralistic, holier-than-thou, with a you're on your own attitude,
smugly observing the painful consequences of sin with a don't expect me
to intervene stance. Hateful to the sufferer. David's plight is about
finding a way to live with dignity in disgrace as well as finding hope and
meaning in the face of increasingly grim circumstances, much like white
South Africa as a whole.
I also wondered what the hell David was doing visiting the Isaacs, but
now it makes sense. Along with expressing to Melanie's father that he
had real feelings for her, I think he also wanted to present himself as just
a human being, not some monster. And what must he do to express
remorse and apology? How far does he need to go? His gesture before
Mrs. Isaacs and Desiree is very theatrical, oddly both too much and not
enough. All of this resonates on a national level as well.
It makes senses to me that David identifies with the discarded dogs left
to die. He feels quite discarded, too. There is a striking similarity here
with (check this out, Candy!) the ending of Cormac McCarthy's THE
CROSSING where Billy Parham finally identifies with a maimed, discarded
dog. It's like David is trying to find a way to ease the dissolution of his
life, the senselessness and sorrow of his rejected state, though
compassionate care of the dogs.
Robt
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (87 of 98), Read 33 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 20, 2000 09:13 AM
Oh Robert you get me every time. You know what else, what
about COTP!!!Duh whats wrong with me but the dog killing scene
in there!
egads. You have made such a good point about the disgrace
factor of the Dutch white south Africans.
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (88 of 98), Read 38 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 20, 2000 11:15 AM
This thing concerning the three legged dog is symbolism of much
more, to me. First of all, Coetzee writes:
"Bearing him in his arms like a lamb, he re-enters the surgery."
This alone says a lot to me. In the Bible there is much reference
to the sacrificial lamb. it is an offering of atonement, and I'm
toying with the idea that Coetzee is using the three legged dog as
a symbol of David's new willingness to sacrifice his emotional
crippledness.
Beej
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (89 of 98), Read 37 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 20, 2000 11:22 AM
I don't mean to hog the floor, but I just read this in here:
" He(David) has learned by now, from her, to concentrate on the
animal they are killing, giving it what he no longer has difficulty in
calling by its proper name:love."
I read this and , you know, that's exactly what was missing from
this man. The emotional lack went further than passion. Maybe
this man has simply learned how to love again.
Beej
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (90 of 98), Read 35 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 20, 2000 11:27 AM
I finally finished up DISGRACE last night and the power of the
closing sections has left me speechless. What a beautiful piece of
work.
I can't remember a novel this emotionally draining since CORELLI'S
MANDOLIN.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (91 of 98), Read 30 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 20, 2000 11:33 AM
Dale, I felt like throwing this book against the wall when I finished
reading it. Doesn't "bearing him in his arms like a lamb" conjure up
a mental picture of a good shepherd? it does for me.
Beej
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (92 of 98), Read 28 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Wednesday, September 20, 2000 01:32 PM
Now we're starting to get to the bottom of this business with the
dogs! Absolutely great, Robert! Absolutely great, Beej! Ain't they
great, Dale? I'm serious.
I think Robert cogently addresses the issue of the dogs generally.
Beej has gone some way toward helping me get a grip specifically
on the three-legged dog, and most particularly why David may
have carried him in to be put down before his time. There is
indeed a sacrificial aspect to that, I think.
I'm tellin' ya. There are wheels within wheels with this dog thing.
Steve
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (93 of 98), Read 27 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 20, 2000 02:01 PM
Steve: Great comments, indeed.
I still can't get over the unlikely, but miraculous, scenes when he
calls on the Isaacses. I literally felt as if I were there in the room
with them. Lord, have mercy.
As to the ending...a pessimist such as myself could interpret
David's final lifting of the three-legged dog as surrendering and
accepting the inevitable--in his life, as well as "Life"--i.e., giving
up the good fight once and for all.
But just moments before, we're told that he at last realizes what
Bev has been saying about loving the animals in their last
moments of life.
Love? Acceptance? Sacrifice? All interwoven, I think, and no
doubt much more that I'll be pondering for quite a while. Wheels
within wheels, for sure.
I remember a discussion we had years ago here on dying,
particularly Dylan Thomas's great imperative, "Rage, rage against
the dying of the light!" To which one Lynn Evans replied (a line
which will forever live in my memory) to the effect that raging
against the darkness is all well and good within reason, but it's
quite a different matter to go into the great beyond "acting like
some yahoo." Such a delicate balance, there.
I don't see any way that even somebody of Coetzee's gifts could
write an encore to this one. But if he did, what do you see David
doing 10 years from now, if he's still around at all? Lucy, I have no
doubt, will thrive, being the D Village equivalent of a soccer mom.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (94 of 98), Read 26 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 20, 2000 02:10 PM
Dale, I see the sacrificing of the three legged dog as not giving up
the "good" fight, but more as giving up the "bad" fight. To me he is
sacrificing his incompleteness, perhaps also before his time. I think
he bonded with his own emotional inadequacies, and is finally
breaking out of that cycle, due to not only Bev, but also the
about to be born grandchild. He is also going to be affected by
the birth of this child who is a product of rape, and he had better
learn to let his love for this child overcome his bitterness over all
else, including the culture that did this to his daughter. If he
doesn't he is going to lose Lucy also. And then he will truly have
nothing.
Beej
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (95 of 98), Read 20 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 20, 2000 08:48 PM
This is all interesting stuff...um why sacrifice? I see it as a mirror
or cousin to acceptance, like some like Beej you say that he has
learned to love, love through mercy and forgiveness? By his
actions he showing accountability for maybe Bev and he share a
history as the low end of the shift of power?
They could be angry but they accept their stewardship and the
history of so called 'domestication' (dogs)of Africa. Its almost like
they are cleaning up their mess. Uh I realize these are animals,
and I dont mean that in such a harsh way....but its too big for him
to keep every dog, he has to let the dog go...or 'save' them all as
pets.
I see them all having a grand time in 10 years Dale, I mean what is
so bad about their lives right at the end there is a lot to look
forward to...
This book makes me think of so many things and here in Canada I
think of our legal attempts to return land to aboriginals...and how
to turn the page and /or move ona and be responsible and
peaceful and make a kind of atonement.......
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (96 of 98), Read 21 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 20, 2000 09:04 PM
Candy, to me sacrifice is a surrender of something important in
hopes of obtaining something even more important. David's self
imposed emotional isolation, in my opinion, had become
comfortable for him, but i think he was now willing to come out of
that comfort zone in order to achieve something greater..love
perhaps? Closeness? I don't know. But that's what I meant by
sacrifice. He was sacrificing his crippled emotions just as he
sacrificed the crippled dog.
Beej
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (97 of 98), Read 19 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 20, 2000 09:31 PM
Oh okay Beej I was taking it as lambs and sacrifice ala The Bible,
which also could make sense to me, thats what I thought you
were saying, sorry about that.
Yeah, I agree with what you said, about the new way and giving
up of something of himself...which could work with history and
grudges ingeneral in the world, and Africa in 'Disgrace'...
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (98 of 98), Read 21 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 20, 2000 09:34 PM
Sorry, Candy....I didn't make that very clear, did I? Its just that
when Coetzee spoke of carrying lambs, I thought of "sacrifice"
immediately.
Beej
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (89 of 110), Read 64 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 20, 2000 11:22 AM
I don't mean to hog the floor, but I just read this in here:
" He(David) has learned by now, from her, to concentrate on the
animal they are killing, giving it what he no longer has difficulty in
calling by its proper name:love."
I read this and , you know, that's exactly what was missing from
this man. The emotional lack went further than passion. Maybe
this man has simply learned how to love again.
Beej
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (90 of 110), Read 62 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 20, 2000 11:27 AM
I finally finished up DISGRACE last night and the power of the
closing sections has left me speechless. What a beautiful piece of
work.
I can't remember a novel this emotionally draining since CORELLI'S
MANDOLIN.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (91 of 110), Read 57 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 20, 2000 11:33 AM
Dale, I felt like throwing this book against the wall when I finished
reading it. Doesn't "bearing him in his arms like a lamb" conjure up
a mental picture of a good shepherd? it does for me.
Beej
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (92 of 110), Read 55 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Wednesday, September 20, 2000 01:32 PM
Now we're starting to get to the bottom of this business with the
dogs! Absolutely great, Robert! Absolutely great, Beej! Ain't they
great, Dale? I'm serious.
I think Robert cogently addresses the issue of the dogs generally.
Beej has gone some way toward helping me get a grip specifically
on the three-legged dog, and most particularly why David may
have carried him in to be put down before his time. There is
indeed a sacrificial aspect to that, I think.
I'm tellin' ya. There are wheels within wheels with this dog thing.
Steve
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (93 of 110), Read 54 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 20, 2000 02:01 PM
Steve: Great comments, indeed.
I still can't get over the unlikely, but miraculous, scenes when he
calls on the Isaacses. I literally felt as if I were there in the room
with them. Lord, have mercy.
As to the ending...a pessimist such as myself could interpret
David's final lifting of the three-legged dog as surrendering and
accepting the inevitable--in his life, as well as "Life"--i.e., giving
up the good fight once and for all.
But just moments before, we're told that he at last realizes what
Bev has been saying about loving the animals in their last
moments of life.
Love? Acceptance? Sacrifice? All interwoven, I think, and no
doubt much more that I'll be pondering for quite a while. Wheels
within wheels, for sure.
I remember a discussion we had years ago here on dying,
particularly Dylan Thomas's great imperative, "Rage, rage against
the dying of the light!" To which one Lynn Evans replied (a line
which will forever live in my memory) to the effect that raging
against the darkness is all well and good within reason, but it's
quite a different matter to go into the great beyond "acting like
some yahoo." Such a delicate balance, there.
I don't see any way that even somebody of Coetzee's gifts could
write an encore to this one. But if he did, what do you see David
doing 10 years from now, if he's still around at all? Lucy, I have no
doubt, will thrive, being the D Village equivalent of a soccer mom.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (94 of 110), Read 53 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 20, 2000 02:10 PM
Dale, I see the sacrificing of the three legged dog as not giving up
the "good" fight, but more as giving up the "bad" fight. To me he is
sacrificing his incompleteness, perhaps also before his time. I think
he bonded with his own emotional inadequacies, and is finally
breaking out of that cycle, due to not only Bev, but also the
about to be born grandchild. He is also going to be affected by
the birth of this child who is a product of rape, and he had better
learn to let his love for this child overcome his bitterness over all
else, including the culture that did this to his daughter. If he
doesn't he is going to lose Lucy also. And then he will truly have
nothing.
Beej
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (95 of 110), Read 47 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 20, 2000 08:48 PM
This is all interesting stuff...um why sacrifice? I see it as a mirror
or cousin to acceptance, like some like Beej you say that he has
learned to love, love through mercy and forgiveness? By his
actions he showing accountability for maybe Bev and he share a
history as the low end of the shift of power?
They could be angry but they accept their stewardship and the
history of so called 'domestication' (dogs)of Africa. Its almost like
they are cleaning up their mess. Uh I realize these are animals,
and I dont mean that in such a harsh way....but its too big for him
to keep every dog, he has to let the dog go...or 'save' them all as
pets.
I see them all having a grand time in 10 years Dale, I mean what is
so bad about their lives right at the end there is a lot to look
forward to...
This book makes me think of so many things and here in Canada I
think of our legal attempts to return land to aboriginals...and how
to turn the page and /or move ona and be responsible and
peaceful and make a kind of atonement.......
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (96 of 110), Read 48 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 20, 2000 09:04 PM
Candy, to me sacrifice is a surrender of something important in
hopes of obtaining something even more important. David's self
imposed emotional isolation, in my opinion, had become
comfortable for him, but i think he was now willing to come out of
that comfort zone in order to achieve something greater..love
perhaps? Closeness? I don't know. But that's what I meant by
sacrifice. He was sacrificing his crippled emotions just as he
sacrificed the crippled dog.
Beej
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (97 of 110), Read 46 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 20, 2000 09:31 PM
Oh okay Beej I was taking it as lambs and sacrifice ala The Bible,
which also could make sense to me, thats what I thought you
were saying, sorry about that.
Yeah, I agree with what you said, about the new way and giving
up of something of himself...which could work with history and
grudges ingeneral in the world, and Africa in 'Disgrace'...
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (98 of 110), Read 48 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 20, 2000 09:34 PM
Sorry, Candy....I didn't make that very clear, did I? Its just that
when Coetzee spoke of carrying lambs, I thought of "sacrifice"
immediately.
Beej
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (99 of 110), Read 27 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
S. Bohinka (bohinka@riconnect.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 27, 2000 01:53 AM
Hi Everyone,
I'm at Chapter 18 of the book and about 3/4 of the way through
the 98 posts here. I didn't want to read the ending from you first.
I'm finding that I can only read a few chapters of the book at a
time because there's a lot to think about and because it's
somewhat depressing to me. Not that I don't like it! :)
I identify more with David or perhaps see him as 'the' main
character because (at as far as I've read) he seems to be a more
defined character. Lucy seems to me to be one of the many
women in his life and as many of you've said, "journey".
I saw David as a predator at the beginning of the book and less so
as it went on as he had to deal with the mundane daily things of
work on the farm. Quite a contrast to his literary life in the
university.
On page 22 he's thinking about Melanie and says this, "Yet we
cannot live our daily lives in a realm of pure ideas, cocooned from
sense-experience." (I'm sure he was thinking of sexual type stuff
but it has farther implications. Like most of what's happening in
the book.)
He seemed to become more 'real' as the book progressed.
Mary Anne,
>Which, of the many disgraces in this book, is the one referenced
in the title?
Did someone answer this? I didn't see it. I marked references to
the word disgrace as it was being used by the characters as I
went along.
p. 85 when meeting Bev Shaw he replies to her question, "Not just
in trouble. In what I suppose one would call disgrace."
p. 115 when Lucy doesn't want to go to the market. "She would
rather hide her face, and he knows why. Because of the disgrace."
I agree that there are many types of disgrace in the book but the
two central ones revolve around the two main characters and
their two main disgraces. (Though I think David feeling that he
didn't protect Lucy is tied strongly to his other senses of
disgrace.)
Steve,
>While I understand Coetzee was an opponent of apartheid, he
clearly is making some statement here about a post-apartheid
South Africa that has slipped into a kind of anarchy outside the
few big urban centers. Civilization's writ does not really extend
into these places. If one chooses to live there, one must accept
that, as Lucy obviously has. <
I found the part (starting at the bottom of p.116 about David
pondering the role Petrus had to play in their attack and how he
can no longer deal with him in the old way to be highly significant.
I have to say that I didn't really know what race/relationship a lot
of these characters had as the book progressed until I got to this
part. David and Lucy not trusting the police confused me.
Beej,
>I don't like David's attitude toward Bev at all. Immediately after
their first sexual encounter he thinks:
"Let me not forget this day...this is what I will have to get used
to, this and even less than this."<<
What bothered me even more was when he said to himself, "if she
is poor, he is bankrupt." Is it self-loathing because of his disgrace?
Bo
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (100 of 110), Read 28 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
S. Bohinka (bohinka@riconnect.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 27, 2000 03:26 AM
The Dogs:
Did you all discuss the slaughtering of the dogs during the attack?
I felt this was the turning point of the book.
I wondered at the time *why* they were killed. There wasn't
really any point to that part of the attack.
Then later when David was questioning Petrus, Petrus says he's
no DOG-MAN anymore. (So, did Petrus make sure this was part of
the attack so he could assert himself and build his homestead,
etc?)
I saw the dogs as symbolism throughout. (This isn't to say that I
wasn't moved by the euthanasia. But, I also had to ask why there
wasn't an animal education program going on but I know that's
stupid considering what was happening with the people!)
Dogs are symbolism: p. 205 "To start at ground level. With
nothing...No rights, no dignity."
"Like a dog."
"Yes, like a dog."
When I first read the last page I thought he was referring to the
dog as 'she' but now rereading it I see that the dog is 'he'. "I'm
giving him up." (My reading is that "he" is David.)
Bo
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (101 of 110), Read 29 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
S. Bohinka (bohinka@riconnect.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 27, 2000 03:33 AM
I have mixed feelings about the book. I have to say that I felt like
I was being hit over the head with symbolism and "threads of
meaning" throughout the book.
There's the "fire" that he gets 'burned with' in his relationships and
in the attack. (Referred to in his encounter with Mr. Isaacs and
the 'lyric' aforementioned
quote.)
There are the dogs.
There's disgrace.
There's the lyric thing.
Countless father and daughter refs.
My mixed feeling is that in some ways I appreciate it. I see some
of the intertwining of themes and appreciate the multi-levelness of
it all.
OTOH, it also seemed to be a bit TOO MUCH. Maybe by this I wish
it was more subtle or that there was more something that he
didn't give me.
Bo
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (102 of 110), Read 29 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
S. Bohinka (bohinka@riconnect.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 27, 2000 03:39 AM
Steve,
>>>The most difficult chapter for me--difficult to handle--is
Nineteen wherein he goes to visit the Isaacs family. He explains to
Mr. Isaacs that he failed to supply the "lyrical" in his relations with
Melanie. (As if this Isaacs would understand what he is saying!)
I saw this and his original meeting with the committee as typical
of his character. He acted without regard to the consequences.
Or rather, that he didn't seem to be able to see what the
consequences of his actions would lead to.
To me this was also apparent at the end of the book when it's
revealed that he slept with tons of women. He didn't see what it
would lead to.
>>Wow, was it ever painful for some reason to read of him
kneeling and placing his forehead on the floor in front of Mrs.
Isaacs and Desirée!
That was one scene that surprised me. I wasn't sure if he'd come
right out and apologize--though that seemed to be the purpose of
the scene. And, his being unaware that an apology wouldn't do
any good.
>>I believe now as you do. This thing with Melanie started out as
one thing--that which I described earlier--and turned into another
thing--this.
I really missed what you meant here.
Robt,
I agree with your analysis of the South African symbolism.
Bo
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (103 of 110), Read 31 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
S. Bohinka (bohinka@riconnect.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 27, 2000 03:47 AM
Did you all discuss the literary allusions?
What did you make of his musical endeavors? I have to say that
this is the part that bored me the most. It seemed out of sync
tonewise with the rest of his writing. I had no trouble reading any
other part of the book--it all flowed--until I got to that part
where I had to force myself to concentrate. Then his pace
seemed to pick up again. Anyone else feel that way?
And, I forgot the most important dog reference! The one where
he's asking himself if he could bring a dog into the piece he's
writing. (p. 215)
I don't know Byron so I'm not sure how much I missed in this
section. For awhile there I thought that Teresa had become a real
person to him.
And, what about Lucy selling out to Petrus and having the baby?
(BTW, I haven't noticed anyone posting spoiler warnings. Do you
just assume that someone reading here has read the whole book?)
Bo
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (104 of 110), Read 29 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 27, 2000 10:43 AM
Hi Bo, wow, I love seeing some post so many in a row....I feel
your pain! Uh first, I jumped right in and talked about the ending, I
should have put spoilers you make a good point.
I didn't feel he hit us over the head TOO much with his symbolism,
and I usually feel overly sensitive to that kind of writing so I'm
surprised after reading your posts that I didn't feel distracted by
them. When I see it all in your light, it almost does seem heavy
handed.
The dogs, call me crazy but I thought the dogs were some aspect
from colonization!!! Not from pre-colonization Africans.
I don't see where Lucy lives as anarchy. I think there is a very
distinct structure and culture. It's just different than white Dutch
culture. I don't see Lucy as selling out to live there. I see her as
accepting and respecting her new cultures practices. I see her
accepting that her dad did not give her a strong family
foundation(or her mum, not taking sides here) and that is a
metaphor for their structure of living in general of 'the power'
before apartheid. She adapts/adopts a community, a culture that
may not be how she was raised but offers her safety and
community and belonging and a place. Her father (and his people)
have a bigger disgrace of seeing that Africa has rejected their
style of making a life. The dogs are left overs of their kind of
'domestication' or 'colonization'.
Bo I'm glad this discussion is still alive an dwell as I am still
thinking about this book.
The other day a woman came into the bookstore where I was
working and she had read this for her book club and she was like 'I
could relate to David, but not Lucy, it wasn't her story, and I can
not see why she lived the way she did.' It is partly her story her
decision was another potential disgrace for her parents(the former
power of South Africa)
Her choice is like a big flipping the bird to
the past.
just some quick thoughts Bo, enjoyed your posts!
Candy
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (105 of 110), Read 31 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 27, 2000 11:20 AM
Candy -- doggone it -- between Bo's list of posts and your
response -- I have to go back Saturday and get a copy of this --
I had it in hand today but due to budget set for myself as I
entered the store I narrowed the four or five books down to two
-- came away with Tulip Fever and Oranges Are Not the Only Fruit
-- left Disgrace and a Bryson and another that has slipped the
bonds completely at the moment behind. Disgrace HAS to be
retrieved however -- more and more of this is making me think of
The Poisonwood Bible story and relate it to the misguided colonial
missionary ideas in that book. Should have stuck with it today and
left Oranges for later time -- hindsight!
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (106 of 110), Read 24 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
S. Bohinka (bohinka@riconnect.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 27, 2000 07:52 PM
Hi Candy,
>>Hi Bo, wow, I love seeing some post so many in a row....I feel
your pain!
What else can one do at 3 am when finishing a powerful book like
this!
>Uh first, I jumped right in and talked about the ending, I should
have put spoilers you make a good point.
I like to talk about ideas in the book as I read it. That way, even
if I look like a fool to the rest of you, I can kind of work my ideas
about the book as it develops. It always helps me to think as I
type. If I try to articulate to you something I can't quite figure
out, I can usually at least ask the question a bit more clearly.
>>The dogs, call me crazy but I thought the dogs were some
aspect from colonization!!! Not from pre-colonization Africans.
I guess I lost you here. I saw them as a symbol of the 'disgrace'
and 'bottom of society' (whomever it is at the time).
>>I don't see where Lucy lives as anarchy. I think there is a very
distinct structure and culture. It's just different than white Dutch
culture. I don't see Lucy as selling out to live there. I see her as
accepting and respecting her new cultures practices. I see her
accepting that her dad
I'm not really sure what to think of Lucy. I'm not sure of her
internal motivations and reasons for making her choices. Except
perhaps that she didn't think through the consequences from her
hippie days.
There was one line that I marked which I thought summed her up.
(p. 105) This is one of the earlier times when David is trying to
talk her out of continuing on as usual after the attack. Her
response to him is, "It was never safe, and it's not an idea, good
or bad. I'm not going back for the sake of an idea. I'm just going
back." I thought that was pretty profound.
>>did not give her a strong family foundation(or her mum,
Were there more than one or two refs to her mother near the
of the book?
>>may not be how she was raised but offers her safety and
community and belonging and a place. Her father (and his
I'm not sure I agree with you here. I'm not sure she's really going
to be "safe" under Petrus' care. And, it seemed like she had to
give up an awful lot to have even a measure of safety. Like I said,
I don't think I ever really understood her deeper motivation. What
was her connection to the land?
>>like 'I could relate to David, but not Lucy, it wasn't her story,
and I can not see why she lived the way she did.'
I guess I've been saying that too. I saw David as the POV (point
of view) character through which all the other characters were
developed.
And, I guess this is a good question for the group. Did you feel
that Coetzee wrote sympathetic and real women characters? I
know some of you related to Lucy a lot more than I did.
I'm of mixed mind about this. I think Lucy is more complex than
the other women characters who seem to be seen only through
David's eyes (or other parts of his body. :)
Perhaps like the woman at your store, I didn't feel that this was
Lucy's story. If it were I would have wanted to know what
happened to her during the attack. We see that only through
David's eyes. (And, I'm sure most of the women here'll shoot me
for even suggesting this---I have to say that part of what I
wondered until near the end when David finally got her to
acknowledge *some* of what went on was...
I wondered if she used herself to try to protect David. I'm not
saying that this wouldn't have been rape. But, her reactions didn't
read like other rape situations exactly and I wondered if more was
going on.)
And, I'd have wanted to know about Lucy's significant
relationships and how they affected her. She seemed to be a
shadow of a person--partially there, partially not.
>>Her choice is like a big flipping the bird to
the past.
OK. This makes sense to me, particularly in light of her hippie
days. I didn't see it that way but it makes sense. Thanks!
Bo
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (107 of 110), Read 18 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Wednesday, September 27, 2000 10:03 PM
I agree with you Bo, I saw this as David's story, and I never really
understood Lucy's motivations nor how she arrived at her way of
thinking and living.
Ruth
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (108 of 110), Read 17 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, September 27, 2000 11:07 PM
Hey Ruth and Bo, well I agree it is Davids story...but I think we
are offered some behavior to assess and figure out WHY Lucy
chose what she did. I am sticking to the idea that she wanted
community. Her family was not a foundation for her. They sounded
like the typical dispersed selfish parents of a certain generation.
I'm not sure Lucy was a hippie, I'm not sure what they call kids
her age....isn't it generation x? She had rejected her parents life
by the time we evn see where the story is set.
I don't see the dogs as 'the bottom' of life or bottom dwellers.
They are 'pets'. Or leftovers from pets aren't they? Does anybody
know where the dogs came from? I thought the dogs were a result
of irresponsible owners(hmm irresponsible parents? irresponsible
role models? ie; sex with a student?)
I am just throwing this out, I think the dogs are a little of what
ever we all see them as but I'm not sure when I think of a dog I
think of bottom dweeller. I think of pet, or lost pet, or
vulnerable...in our culture as well as the Dutch in South Africa, I
thought dogs were pets.
I think we are shown that Lucy would be protected by Petreus
and his status in his community. David not being able to protect
her during attack was a reminder of his inability to be a protective
or responsible force in her life in general. I think we know that
from David in the novel.
I sort of think that being unaccountable or irresponsible is the real
disgrace in this story...demonstrated(its not symbolic, its shown)
byt the dogs gone out of kilter....where are their owners or the
fathers of the dogs owners etc? How did this get so out of control
these over populated dogs? Now is the time for unaccountability
to be accountable...
????
Don't David and Bev believe its their responsibility to 'take care of
these dogs?'
Its not about compassion its about being responsible no?
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (109 of 110), Read 15 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Wednesday, September 27, 2000 11:20 PM
I didn't get the feeling Lucy was going to get much protection
from Petrus. Or if she did, it would only be because she was selling
her independence. I can't imagine that her life under Petrus's
thumb would be anything but giving away the farm (both literally
and figuratively) inch by inch.
Ruth
Topic:
DISGRACE (110 of 110), Read 8 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Thursday, September 28, 2000 07:58 AM
It seemed to me Lucy was allowing herself to be subsumed by the
new culture out of a sense of racial obligation and guilt. She uses
her very self as a sacrifice for the advantages she (and all like
her) had had previously. I think she viewed the rape as the
culmination of justifiable rage. She took it upon herself to be
humbled by it, not enraged by it. I see her as a Christ-like figure,
in that her treatment is that of a scapegoat, and her reaction is
forgiveness and acceptance.
Sherry
Topic:
DISGRACE (111 of 117), Read 26 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Thursday, September 28, 2000 10:38 AM
That can explain a lot about her actions, Sherry. Much as I think
it's a silly way to go, it does explain her infuriating passive
acceptance.
Ruth
Topic:
DISGRACE (112 of 117), Read 27 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Thursday, September 28, 2000 11:00 AM
Don't we all accept our cultures? sometimes passively sometimes
its called 'coming of age' 'growing up'?Don't we all have to accept
our'staus' most of us aren't the President or a movie star but
'working on the farm'. In the words of b Dylan, "you gotta serve
somebody"
Topic:
DISGRACE (113 of 117), Read 26 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Thursday, September 28, 2000 11:22 AM
You have a point, Candy. But to have Lucy allow herself to be
subsumed to this extent bothers me. If it doesn't bother her, I
guess it's okay, but it sure pushes some of my buttons.
Ruth
Topic:
DISGRACE (114 of 117), Read 26 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Thursday, September 28, 2000 11:35 AM
I can hardly wit until Saturday when I plan to pick this up -- but a
reaction to this subsumption of herself which so disturbs you,
Ruth -- perhaps it's meant to disturb -- colonialist subsumption of
the country/culture and no matter what the 'disgrace' remains
and unless there is a forgiveness and forgetfulness the conjoined
culture which thereafter exists will never work -- we see this
many places not just in the African continent. Take all this with
the large grain of salt of my not having yet read anything except
this discussion,
Dottie -- wondering what she will think once she reads the book
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
DISGRACE (115 of 117), Read 23 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Lynn Isvik (washualum@yahoo.com)
Date:
Thursday, September 28, 2000 12:23 PM
Dottie, I'm so glad I'm not the only one here reading the
discussion before the book. I finally went through interlibrary loan
to locate a copy out here in the literary wasteland of rural Iowa.
(Now don't take that as criticism of my beloved state... just my
local library!) I'm eagerly anticipating its arrival in the next day or
so.
Lynn (too)
Topic:
DISGRACE (116 of 117), Read 24 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Thursday, September 28, 2000 12:39 PM
Don't worry, Lynn, I won't misconstrue your comments about
locating books -- but if you REALLY want to have fun trying to
keep up try finding these things in a hurry in Hasselt, Limburg
Province, Belgium. I was really quite surprised to see Disgrace in
Standaard Boekhandel -- very pleasantly so -- but money being
the issue I talked myself out of it and have to go back -- sigh --
no excuse really.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
DISGRACE (117 of 117), Read 19 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Robert Armstrong (rla@nac.net)
Date:
Thursday, September 28, 2000 04:50 PM
At first I didn't understand Lucy but now she makes sense to me.
Her withdrawal and depression seemed to be her way of not only
dealing with being raped but also facing the stark reality of her
situation in post apartheid South Africa. She loved the land and
was a natural at farming and I imagine much of her internal
conflict was about whether or not she could give this up and
retreat to an urban area where she would be relatively safe.
I don't regard her refusal to talk about the violence with David as
being passive so much as her feelings were inexplicable and that
she felt the dialogue would be futile given the huge difference
between their generational attitudes toward race relations. I'm
sure David was intellectually liberal but, I think, emotionally tied to
the way he grew up. The idea of Lucy having a baby of color or
being married to a black man was probably a difficult matter for
him to accept in addition to the fact that the child was conceived
through rape.
As has been pointed out here before, I think David saw the whole
thing as a defeat whereas Lucy saw it as a practical matter, a
way for her to retain her rural lifestyle, to be a part of the land. I
have been to South Africa twice and the countryside around
Capetown is astonishingly beautiful. In fact, all of South Africa is
blessed with incredible natural beauty. It was something that
Lucy was not willing to lose, I think.
Also, being a lesbian would influence how Lucy regarded the
society that she grew up in. She would be more apt to identify
with the oppressed and see herself as an outsider. Emotionally
she was already distanced somewhat from her white culture that
disapproved of her sexuality. I can understand why she would
accept being protected by a black man if she did not have to
have sex with him. Her terms were to have autonomy in her own
home. There she could create her own family with another
woman. She did not need to be married to her female partner.
Marriage was already obsolete for her. In some ways her
lesbianism made her ideal for surviving in this situation.
Shooting the dogs may have carried the message: you are no
longer the pet owner and we are not pets, either.
Robt
Topic:
DISGRACE (118 of 161), Read 69 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ian Marks (comfortably_numb@ecosse.net)
Date:
Friday, September 29, 2000 02:12 PM
More catching up. Dang, this one will not leave me alone!
>>"I also wondered what the hell David was doing visiting the
Isaacs, but now it makes sense. Along with expressing to
Melanie's father that he had real feelings for her, I think he also
wanted to present himself as just a human being, not some
monster."<<
Robert ~~
It's interesting to compare David's (voluntary and, one assumes,
painful) visit to the Isaacses with his summons to appear before
that committee, and to compare the reactions and behaviour of
those he confronts.
>>I saw this as David's story, and I never really understood
Lucy's motivations nor how she arrived at her way of thinking and
living.<<
Ruth ~~
Me neither. Try as I might, I cannot understand that gal. Oh, she
wants to get away and live on the land, live simply, get back to
nature, call it what you like, but, in her own way, she is
abandoning a whole set of (social) "rules" and "expectations" in
much the same way that her father went against the "rules" and
"expectations" of his situation. And both "pay" for their
transgressions.
I guess underlying much of all of this is the way in which we find
it so hard to understand / accept the views / feelings / emotions
of others, esp. those who think / behave differently from
ourselves. Society (either in general, or specifically, e.g. schools,
universities, workplaces etc.) have certain expectations of
behaviour. Often these expectations ignore human feeling and
emotion. There is no reason on God's earth why older men should
not be attracted to younger women, or younger women to older
men. Ditto, no reason why someone shouldn't choose to go off
and live a rural life espousing a lifestyle that is regarded by the
bulk of the population as, well, "weird".
Whatever else DISGRACE has done for me, it has made me
examine my own views on some of the issues it throws up. What
more can you ask of a book?
Ian
Topic:
DISGRACE (119 of 161), Read 69 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Friday, September 29, 2000 04:24 PM
Here's my take on David's visit to the Isaacs. I think it was
entirely selfish. He was thinking only of what he would get out of
it, how it was an act of atonement for him.
Witness that weird bowing down scene. He was thinking only that
if he abased himself, he'd somehow be exonerated.
It apparently never crossed his mind how this visit (not to
mention the kowtowing) would affect Isaacs---opening old
wounds, having to deal with someone (David) who appears close
to going over the edge.
Ruth
Topic:
DISGRACE (120 of 161), Read 70 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Friday, September 29, 2000 04:37 PM
Ruth: I'd have to disagree on this particular aspect of my
(admittedly very flawed) man, David. To me, he understood very
early on in the visit how ill-advised it was, to such a degree that
every one of my innards ached for him.
Even after all of this, though, comes the weird (but for me, very
convincing) scene of bowing down, which holds, even in his own
mind (especially in his own mind?), no chance in hell of even the
least degree of atonement. For me, this means that by his own
(however-warped) lights, David is doing the best and only thing
he knows under the circumstances.
I am, by the way, still searching for the source of my all-time
most profound quote (if none shows up by 2001 I'll file for
copyright{G}), which is:
The supreme tragedy of human existence is that everyone has
their reasons.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
DISGRACE (121 of 161), Read 70 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Friday, September 29, 2000 04:39 PM
If he understood there was no chance in hell of atonement for
him, and that his visit could do nothing but pain the Isaacs. Why
in hell did he do it?
Ruth
Topic:
DISGRACE (122 of 161), Read 68 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
S. Bohinka (bohinka@riconnect.com)
Date:
Friday, September 29, 2000 11:55 PM
Ian,
Well, I agree with you and I don't.
>>I guess underlying much of all of this is the way in which we
find it so hard to understand / accept the views / feelings /
emotions of others, esp. those who think / behave differently from
ourselves.<<<
I agree with this in general. I know that there are people I know
who can explain things to me and no matter how much we talk we
never reach a level of understanding.
Where I disagree with you, I guess, is about this book in
particular. I'm not sure we were *meant* to understand Lucy.
Was there a part in this book that actually came out and said
"she loved the land"? It showed her working it. It showed her
doing stuff. But, I don't think I got a sense of Lucy loving
anything--her lovers, her dogs, her father or the land. Perhaps
this was because she was attacked not long after her
introduction into the book and then appeared emotionless. (Or
maybe I'm just not remembering everything from the book.)
Candy---we weren't talking about the same dogs. You were
talking about the real ones and I was talking about the 'symbolic
ones'. In my blitz of posting I quoted a bunch of the refs which I
think explain what I meant.
Bo
Topic:
DISGRACE (123 of 161), Read 67 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
S. Bohinka (bohinka@riconnect.com)
Date:
Saturday, September 30, 2000 12:03 AM
Ruth/Dale,
I don't think David thought about the consequences of his actions
with the Isaacs. It probably seemed like a good idea at the time.
It was David-centered. And, perhaps fit in which his being in
'disgrace mode'.
P. 172, "It is not punishment I have refused. I do not murmur
against it. On the contrary, I am living it out from day to day,
trying to accept disgrace as my state of being. Is it enough for
God, do you think that I live in disgrace without term?"
Bo
Topic:
DISGRACE (124 of 161), Read 67 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Saturday, September 30, 2000 02:03 AM
Ok Bo I am so confused with all the dog stuff anyway and I think I
was just off on some bizarre tangent so sorry if I was flaky.
I want to say after all of this that I think maybe it sounds like I
didn't think these were interesting people or something. What I
think I like most about these people and characters whether or
not they were the protagonist including Petrus and Bev is that
these were all people whose lives started after disgrace. I find
them infinitely more interesting and human and accessible than
many novels or real people. Um the Isaacs...well atonement is
weird. I thought that that part was very realistic, Ruth. I don't
know if there are many here at Cr who have ever gone out and
tried atonement, I have been a royal idiot for most of life have
spent a good part of it saying, oops, I'm sorry. And the first raw
experience of atonement is how very selfish and internal it feels.
After wards it seemed to have nothing to do with the other
players. But a tangent yet I offer you fair readers...sorry
I really liked David, I felt here is a person who has been there and
back again, good, now it's time to start living!!!!We don't have to
like Lucy or agree or understand, whats very cool in this novel is
David has the guts to not boss her around and hang close and
bond.
I think he 'gets her'. Even if the reader is left trying to catch up...
but I'm still afraid of South Africa
Topic:
DISGRACE (125 of 161), Read 66 times
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From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Saturday, September 30, 2000 08:31 AM
One aspect of the atonement bit that hadn't occurred to me
before...
David was not religious, but he knew that Isaacs most likely was.
And the whole basis of the Christian faith is atonement and
personal forgiveness. Isaacs did not owe David the approval of his
deed, or a lifelong friendship, but he clearly did owe David that
forgiveness, under the principles of the faith Isaacs himself
professed, but instead used the God idea to further scold and
belittle him. Awfully small-minded and holier-than-thou.
I really felt for Isaacs in the beginning, but after this episode
came away with a strong disliking of him, and an even greater
respect for David.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
DISGRACE (126 of 161), Read 67 times
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From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Saturday, September 30, 2000 08:54 AM
Dale and all, In re-reading this thread, I was struck by a comment
I believe Ian made in comparing the visit to the Isaac's to the
appearance before the investigating committee. He prostrated
himself before Mr. Isaac, and it's in exact contrast to his behavior
before the committee. i don't quite understand this prostrating
business. Why did he do this? What was he trying to convey with
this? I do know priests prostrate themselves before the altar upon
ordination as an expression of humility and subservience.
Beej
Topic:
DISGRACE (127 of 161), Read 66 times
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From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Saturday, September 30, 2000 09:03 AM
Beej: I believe that by the end of David's visit he realized
overwhelmingly (and rightfully) the extent to which words were
failing him.
I think the act of kneeling was totally on impulse, out of sincere
desperation, because it was the only religious gesture he knew.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
DISGRACE (128 of 161), Read 69 times
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From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Saturday, September 30, 2000 09:59 AM
I didn't think he prostrated himself in front of the committee. I
think by his actions he more or less told them it was none of their
business, all the while knowing he was sealing his fate. Caving in
to their demands would have been prostrating, don't you think?
Ruth
Topic:
DISGRACE (129 of 161), Read 69 times
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From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Saturday, September 30, 2000 10:01 AM
Ruth, I meant he prostrated himself to Mr. Isaac. he did the
opposite in front of the committee...refused to bow in any way for
the sake of humility.
Beej
Topic:
DISGRACE (130 of 161), Read 66 times
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From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Saturday, September 30, 2000 01:35 PM
I'm right with you on your characterization of this Isaacs visit,
Dale. From my admittedly biased point of view, David is a far
better man than Mr. Isaacs.
The passage Bo quotes bears posting again:
It is not punishment I have refused. I do not murmur against it.
On the contrary, I am living it out from day to day, trying to
accept disgrace as my state of being. Is it enough for God, do
you think that I live in disgrace without term?
This question is posed to Mr. Isaacs whose response is less than
satisfactory in my view.
Steve
Topic:
DISGRACE (131 of 161), Read 60 times
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From:
Ian Marks (comfortably_numb@ecosse.net)
Date:
Saturday, September 30, 2000 01:50 PM
Beej ~~
Re the committee/Mr Isaacs visit. On a personal level, the
David-Melanie affair is none of the committee's d*mn business; he
is summoned before them since it is perceived as a breach of
professional etiquette. David's conduct at the hearing is his way
of conveying this to these holier-than-thous. Re Mr Isaacs,
however, the whole David-Melanie-Isaacs family thing is an
intensely personal matter, and David's conduct reflects that. I
saw David as reflecting upon what might have been between him
and Melanie, in another time and place, perhaps, while still trying
to come to terms with the upset which the whole business had
caused to her family. He does what he can to atone, but to no
avail. The committee wanted him to atone, he didn't (at least in
their eyes) and he lost his job. He did atone to Mr Isaacs - and
was rebuffed. Heads you lose, tails you don't win.
Ian
Topic:
DISGRACE (132 of 161), Read 58 times
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From:
Ian Marks (comfortably_numb@ecosse.net)
Date:
Saturday, September 30, 2000 01:40 PM
>>the whole basis of the Christian faith is atonement and personal
forgiveness. Isaacs did not owe David the approval of his deed, or
a lifelong friendship, but he clearly did owe David that forgiveness,
under the principles of the faith Isaacs himself professed, but
instead used the God idea to further scold and belittle him.
Awfully small-minded and holier-than-thou.<<
Dale ~~
Yay!! Well said!
Ian
Topic:
DISGRACE (133 of 161), Read 60 times
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From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Saturday, September 30, 2000 01:59 PM
Ian, Of course! I should have seen that. Thanks...it really was
none of the committee's business, was it?
Beej
Topic:
DISGRACE (134 of 161), Read 56 times
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From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Saturday, September 30, 2000 02:53 PM
Ian -- I agree -- Dale said it well -- now I would pose a question
-- bear in mind folks I was to pick this up today and didn't get to
do so. My thought was this -- the small-minded and holier than
thou thing -- sounds like a great many small,
missionary/evangelist type preachers I have heard and known --
and once again connected this book with my recent re-reading of
The Poisonwood Bible -- Reverend Price could have taught that
version of Christianity to Isaacs easily I would wager.
Dottie -- chomping at the bit to get into this one
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
DISGRACE (135 of 161), Read 56 times
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From:
Lynn Isvik (washualum@yahoo.com)
Date:
Saturday, September 30, 2000 07:46 PM
I'm as puzzled by David's intentions in going to the Issacs' home
as the rest of you. At first, just based on reading the discussion
here, I was tempted to believe he was demonstrating the
sincerity of apology that the university committee professed to
seek, but which he denied them. (But how can any outsider judge
another's sincerity?)
However, as soon as I read his reaction to meeting Melanie's
younger sister (Desiree, no less!) I wondered how he could
possibly sit at the dinner table with the family mouthing apologies
at the same time he's lusting after the remaining daughter. This
does NOT sound like a man who has learned anything:
"fruit of the same tree, down probably to the most intimate detail.
Yet with differences: different pulsings of the blood, different
urgencies of passion. The two of them in the same bed: an
experience fit for a king."
Lynn
Topic:
DISGRACE (136 of 161), Read 58 times
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From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Saturday, September 30, 2000 08:52 PM
Lynn notes, of David's behavor at the Isaac household...
"...mouthing apologies at the same time he's lusting after the
remaining daughter. This does NOT sound like a man who has
learned anything."
To which I would suggest...Lynn, none of us, as human beings,
can control our perceptions of anything, much less those
regarding passion, religion, or sexuality.
Everything I have read and experienced tells me that our brains
are hard-wired toward that same function until the day we die.
The only thing we can control is our interpretation of and/or
physical response to those perceptions, which I believe David has
learned in the greatest, and most punishing, measure possible.
Are we all actually responsible, morally, for everything that we
think? God, I hope not.
I don't believe that this is, by any means, a gender thing; I have
seen, in the past month alone, dozens of jokes via E-mail that
represent female responses to the above paradigm, in exact mirror
images of lust, foolishness, hubris, not learning, etc. The
pendulum swings both ways. Society's reaction depends on which
faction happens to be on top at any given time. At this time, it's
sure not David. And it's sure not my feeble defense of his actions.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
DISGRACE (137 of 161), Read 53 times
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From:
Lynn Isvik (washualum@yahoo.com)
Date:
Saturday, September 30, 2000 09:43 PM
Dale, I agree that we can't be held morally responsible for things
we think but choose not to act on. But I have to think some more
about why this little bit made me think "how could he?" as
strongly as it did. Maybe it's just something I'm bringing to it
rather than David's character at all. (As you may have guessed, I
didn't have a particularly sympathetic reaction to David in general,
which also bears some more thinking.)
Lynn
Topic:
DISGRACE (138 of 161), Read 55 times
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From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Saturday, September 30, 2000 10:00 PM
to me that seemed like a typical guy thing to think. I am pretty
sure the day guys aren't still dreaming about stuff like that
fantasy is the day us chicks won't be getting any. Its so healthy
and remember its INSIDE his head. What always charms me is on
a date or getting to know a guy some of the truly funny sex
things they are all ready to talk about but its because when a guy
is active he is just ON. There isn't always a nuance type thing...
A friend of mine was in Spain and with his gal and he kept looking
at women(who couild blame him in Spain) anyways she broke up
with him. I told him there are lots of reasons to break up with him,
but that wasn't one of them!!!!
Topic:
DISGRACE (139 of 161), Read 59 times
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From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Saturday, September 30, 2000 10:46 PM
Bless you Candy. May you multiply and be fruitful among women.
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
DISGRACE (140 of 161), Read 57 times
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From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Sunday, October 01, 2000 07:09 AM
I would put it this way, Lynn. Being a male is a dirty damned job,
but somebody's got to do it.
However, your question concerning the sincerity of his apology is
an apt one. The answer is not a simple yes or no. What do we
mean by sincere? I do believe that his intentions were sincere in
the sense that he did wish to atone in some way to these people.
But if by sincere we mean that he truly regrets the Melanie affair
and would rather it had not happened, I have my doubts, too.
These are two entirely different interpretations of sincerity in
these circumstances.
This mixture of the sincere and the insincere, this ambiguity, is
perfectly captured by his kneeling and touching the floor with his
forehead. I am fascinated by that gesture, as has already been
made abundantly clear. Recall that he does that not only before
the mother but before the mother and Desirée. This gesture
expresses his wish to atone to the mother and his adoration of
this sister's lush little body all at the same time.
That's how I see it anyway.
Steve
Topic:
DISGRACE (141 of 161), Read 58 times
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From:
Lynn Isvik (washualum@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, October 01, 2000 08:52 AM
I love this interpretation of a dual meaning in his bowing!! I never
considered it that way.
Lynn
Topic:
DISGRACE (142 of 161), Read 56 times
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From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Sunday, October 01, 2000 09:36 AM
Lynn, I suppose one might try to make the case that this gesture
is both an apology to the mother and an apology to the daughter
for his lustful thoughts concerning her. However, I don't find any
evidence to support the latter.
The one thing I am sure of, however, is that is no accident or
meaningless coincidence that the daughter is sitting on that bed
with her mother when he does this, just as it is no accident or
meaningless coincidence that they are in a bedroom in the first
place.
Steve
Topic:
DISGRACE (143 of 161), Read 31 times
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From:
Ian Marks (comfortably_numb@ecosse.net)
Date:
Monday, October 02, 2000 04:43 PM
>>However, your question concerning the sincerity of his apology
is an apt one. The answer is not a simple yes or no. What do we
mean by sincere?<<
Steve ~~
Good point, and one that I think Coetzee is at pains to draw out.
David could have flipped the committee the insincerest apology
under the sun and kept his job. He had enough moral fibre not to
do so. Whatever his motivation(s) in turning up at the Isaacses, I
think there is some element of sincerity present. Feel free to
disagree with me!
Ian
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (144 of 161), Read 49 times
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From:
Sheila Ash (sheila_ash@talk21.com)
Date:
Sunday, October 01, 2000 09:57 AM
Wow, what a book! It has taken me ages to finish it due to other
things
happening else I think I would not have been able to put it down.
I am sure
I will reread this and get a lot more out of it again in years to
come. I
have been catching up on the posts over the last couple of weeks
and there
has been quite a discussion. So here is my two penny worth.
First, Disgrace - I am always entrigued to work out why authors
entitle
books with the titles they have. I lossed count of how many
disgraces there
are in this story - disgarces from one person's view at least.
David's loss
of job etc through his actions with his student, those actions
themselves,
Lucy's disgrace in rape, then in pregnacy, then in forfieture of her
land,
the disgraceful way people treat animals - the dogs, the sheep,
David's
disgrace in not being able to help and stop Lucy's attack etc etc
Second, I've not got my thoughts fully round this yet but keep
wanting to
personify all the aspects of South African history through apartied
and onto
today's reconciliation onto the people and their actions in this
story, so
here goes. Coetzee has always been an oponent of apartheid and
this is his
first book afterwards. I can't believe he would not have wanted to
make a
statement. Sherrie said Lucy's reactions was forgiveness and
acceptance,
Candy said she thought the real disgrace of the story was in
being
unaccountable, Beej said that to her sacrifice is the surrender of
something
important in hopes of attaining soemthin even more important -
these all
sound like the Truth Commission to me, where people give up their
past
histories and come clean about them, admit their accountability
which is
accepted, not punished, because knowledge and truth is the more
important
thing for a united nation going forward than retaliation. Some
people take
longer to get on board with this idea than others in any society,
from both
sides. Lucy is quicker than David, Petrus is quicker than the
rapist. For
all the disgraces in South African history in the past, the biggest
disgrace
of all will be if the Truth Commission approach does not work. For
all their
history, success will be from both sides working together, from
Lucy and
Petrus' alliance.
Sheila
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (145 of 161), Read 49 times
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From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Sunday, October 01, 2000 11:35 AM
This novel demands a lot of thought and a reread, Sheila. You are
absolutely right. I think nearly everyone here shares your reaction
in that one must percolate on it for several days after finishing it
before any coherent impressions emerge at all.
I found your note fascinating, particularly the closing in which you
refer to this "alliance" between Lucy and Petrus. You obviously
left the book with a somewhat positive, or at least hopeful,
picture of post-apartheid South Africa. As I haltingly tried to
express in an earlier note, my impression was a more jaundiced
one of a chaotic, anarchic place away from the urban centers.
Who's to know who's right?
In a recent issue of Harper's, an article by Earl Shorris appeared
in which he bemoans the disappearance of the world's small
languages amid the forces of globalization, small languages being
the focus of the identities of small cultures. The letters in
response were more interesting than the article, however.
As we have seen here on this webboard, some of the most
interesting and thoughtful writing concerning philosophical issues
in this country is currently emanating from the state of Alaska,
however strange that may seem. David Allen from Fairbanks
wrote:
In some far future, we may all be monolingual and unicultural
(and Coca-Cola-drinking, café-au-lait-colored atheists as well),
and Earl Shorris correctly suggests that, if so, we may be poorer
without the Mayan words for "blue." But we may also have
forgotten who is Irish and who is Tutsi; no more Serbs and
Croats; no more Muslims and Hindus.
Does globalization bring cultural amnesia? Maybe. But a loss of
cultural diversity is a small price to pay for an end to communal
slaughter.
I think this has everything to do with your point. It is also clear to
me, however, that both David Lurie and I are disoriented and
bewildered by this coming new world.
Steve
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (146 of 161), Read 49 times
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From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Sunday, October 01, 2000 12:42 PM
Shelia and Steve, wow these were great thoughts and you made
so much sense Steve, because I think that with Lucy and what
she did to live was a person who was already clued into 'the
futureof peace' or something and poor David is just unsure but
getting stronger...I think this was a very positive novel but you're
right we know until time has passed.
Thanks for the Alaska quote...
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (147 of 161), Read 39 times
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From:
S. Bohinka (bohinka@riconnect.com)
Date:
Sunday, October 01, 2000 08:36 PM
Hurrah for the person/people who chose this book. It's certainly a
great discussion book!
Sheila,
I loved the way you put this, "Lucy is quicker than David, Petrus
is quicker than the rapist."
Which is helps to put things in a framework. I think the one thing
that makes this such a good discussion book is all the ambiguities.
Lots of room for interpretation.
I was wondering if anyone knew anything about Coetzee. I saw
that there were several criticism books about his earlier works
around (but not ones I could get my hands on early enough for
the discussion.) I read the book not knowing who he was or what
'sides' he was on.
>>success will be from both sides working together, from Lucy
and Petrus' alliance.<<
This is very perceptive. I saw it as almost a resignation or a last
alternative rather than a choice. Not that good things can't come
out of that kind of situation.
I've been trying to describe this book to some friends which has
been tough. Often one'll use the image of a tapestry to describe a
complex work. I think that might work for a classic---tightly
woven threads, laden with meaning. For this book, however, I saw
it more as thick pieces of cloth loosely woven together into
something like a shawl or blanket. The threads are obvious but
one can almost poke little holes between the pieces.
Bo
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (148 of 161), Read 40 times
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From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Monday, October 02, 2000 03:20 AM
Bo -- my immediate thought was -- ambiguities like LIFE in capital
letters and room for interpretation -- as in HUMANS -- no two
ever really alike though agreements are reached and breached
and rearranged by groups, the idea is always seen from just that
one point where no one else can really know the exact meaning of
it -- the other person's mind and soul.
I also love this bulky version of a tapestry which you have offered
here as a description for this book -- I think it really is much more
descriptive of the complexities and knots and "bumps"of life into
which humans bumble as they walk the earth and live their
moments of time. And the holes are so much more obvious in a
textile of this sort than in a tapestry though those, too, have
small gaps which can be found when light is shown through them.
Dottie -- who FINALLY started Disgrace last night before bed!
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (149 of 161), Read 39 times
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From:
Mary Anne Papale (mapreads@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, October 02, 2000 12:20 PM
This book keeps coming back in real life. This weekend I was
talking with a friend from Columbus who described a "dog park"
near her home, a fenced-in place where pet owners can take their
dogs so they can romp and frolic while the owner sits on a park
bench. It sounds like a great idea to me. I was considering
proposing such a thing here in Flint, when WHAM! I realized that it
would never work here because there are so many bigger
problems and issues that need to be fixed first.
And if such a contrast exists 150 miles apart in the USA, how
stark it must be in South Africa. Here is Lucy, keeping pampered
pets for those that have the ability to go on vacation. And these
animals are on display for all, including those who get no such
treatment. That would have to be as offensive as Lucy's
lesbianism. Another disgrace to consider.
Metaphors be with you... MAP
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (150 of 161), Read 35 times
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From:
Sheila Ash (sheila_ash@talk21.com)
Date:
Monday, October 02, 2000 01:36 PM
Bo,
I would really urge you to read more of his work. Is this one his
best?
Probably, or very close to it. Previously my favourite was his
reworking of
the Robinson Crusoe story called Foe - no spoiler, but there is a
neat twist
to the telling of that tale. The Master of Petersburg was a
powerful
rendering of Dostoevsky and would appeal to anyone interested in
that writer
or Russian literature. His other works are all based in South Africa
and
although it has been a long time since I read those I know Gail
has raved
about The Life and Times of Michael K so much that I thought I
might have to
reread it.
Sheila
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (151 of 161), Read 37 times
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From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, October 02, 2000 02:43 PM
Sheila: I vote strongly for THE LIFE AND TIMES OF MICHAEL K. I
considered it Coetzee's masterpiece and doubted he'd be able to
top it, so I came to DISGRACE a good bit skeptical. Boy, was I
wrong.
Still, that doesn't keep MICHAEL K from being a moving and
unforgettable piece of work, which is somewhere high on my
all-time-best fiction list.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (152 of 161), Read 29 times
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From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Monday, October 02, 2000 04:59 PM
I will be forever indebted to gail for putting me onto The Life and
Times of Michael K. That's not to say that it is an easy novel. It
is not, but well, well worth the effort.
Steve
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (153 of 161), Read 29 times
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From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Monday, October 02, 2000 07:05 PM
Steve -- well, then obviously, Coetzee doesn't 'do' easy novels
because Disgrace is definitely not easy! Having just devoured it --
beginning last night and finishing about midnight tonight -- I am
much more disturbed by it than I had already concluded I would
be from having read along as this discussion unfolded -- but I
think I will stick with some comments I made BEFORE reading it.
Wij zullen zien!! Will reread the thread and then see what I have
to say beyond what has been said. I'm glad I went out and got
this one definitely and am now curious to know if my in real life
group has tackled this one -- will have to get in touch with the
lady who was the 'purveyor of difficult reads' for that group {G}.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (154 of 161), Read 27 times
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From:
Sheila Ash (sheila_ash@talk21.com)
Date:
Tuesday, October 03, 2000 01:23 PM
Steve,
Fascinating reading.. both the book and your note!
You say "Does globalization bring cultural amnesia? Maybe. But a
loss of
cultural diversity is a small price to pay for an end to communal
slaughter."
I actually think this is a very high price to pay! It is from this very
diversity of human natures, creeds, cultures and societies that we
are who
we are. I wonder if our imaginations would not be as ripe with less
variety
around, whether our creativities would dry up if
everything/everyone was the
same as everything/everyone else. Yes, I know some aspects of
human beings
existence are not good and we'd in many ways be better of
without them, but
I ere to the point of view that diversity is healthy. So I don't
want South
Africa or any place, or the world, to loose too much what we
need to
encourage is the acceptance of diversity. One path is not better
than
another, just different. Slight changes are OK if they permit gains.
And
that is where I think South Africa is, where Lucy is. It/She has
accepted
the price to be paid. She made that adjustment fastest in the
book, even
though she seemed to be the most down in spirit at one point.
She actually
worked mentally through the transition faster.
Sheila
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (155 of 161), Read 29 times
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From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Tuesday, October 03, 2000 01:38 PM
Interesting questions to ponder in the context of this novel,
Sheila. In the case of Lucy, however, Coetzee throws a wrench in
the works with the sexual assault on her. Had she fallen in with a
black man voluntarily, this would simply have been another
touchy-feely novel about forbidden love and a father's
adjustment. That's why we pay this guy to write though.
By the way, Out of Africa by Isak Dinesen is coming up on the
Classics Corner list, which will make a nice counterpoint to this
one. I love that damned book for some reason.
Steve
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (156 of 161), Read 26 times
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From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, October 03, 2000 02:28 PM
Me, too, Steve.
Ruth
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (157 of 161), Read 25 times
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From:
Pres Lancaster (plancast@slip.net)
Date:
Tuesday, October 03, 2000 04:49 PM
Further to SHEILA's remarks about diversity:
The human race is being homogenized, and when we are all little
fat globules dispersed in the milk of existence, there will be no
cream and George Orwell will be vindicated.
Don't ask me what I mean, but I mean it.
Further to STEVE and RUTH on OUT OF AFRICA, you gots it!
Pres,
How do I know what I think until I see what I say ?
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (158 of 161), Read 20 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
S. Bohinka (bohinka@riconnect.com)
Date:
Tuesday, October 03, 2000 07:39 PM
Sheila et al,
Thanks for the suggestions of other Coetzee books and what
they're about. I remember several people commenting that
Boyhood wasn't a favorite so I didn't look at it though it was
readily available around here.
Dottie,
I'll be curious about your reflections now that you've read and
interacted with the ideas of the book, then read it. Was it what
you expected? Were the issues more sharply defined for you or
did reading the notes ahead of time wreck the 'story' for you?
Sheila/Steve,
>>You say "Does globalization bring cultural amnesia? Maybe. But
a loss of cultural diversity is a small price to pay for an end to
communal slaughter."
When I first read Steve's statement it was so beautifully written
that I just kinda said, "yeah, OK, and went on."
Now that I actually think about it (thanks, Sheila) I have to say
that it's a real tough one.
>>I actually think this is a very high price to pay! It is from this
very diversity of human natures, creeds, cultures and societies
that we are who we are.
Acceptance of diversity is a high priority for me. I'm also into
preserving my heritage even though I don't have kids to pass it on
to.
But, where do you draw the line?
And, to get this back on topic, I guess that's a lot of what was
uncomfortable about Disgrace. The lines kept mushing. (Bad dog
pun, sorry, didn't see that one coming.)
Coincidentally, I'm in the process of reading Shippley's Country of
Strangers which brings a lot of these issues closer to home.
Bo
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (159 of 161), Read 16 times
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From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Tuesday, October 03, 2000 09:33 PM
Yeah, you know Steve I'm very glad you posted about global
divversity etc. Wne I think about Disgrace getting an award like
the Booker I am so blown away because it is such a radical book.
On another thread here I say how Disgrace slaps the face of
European and American ethnocentricity. I still feel the sting and
am surprised to see there is mass acceptance of this book. I
mean, this book is a harsh critique of the failures of western
culture to provide and sustain for their people so much so that
the 'europeans' are adopting and accepting the sense of
responsibility and community of the new/old culture.
Culture is an organic force. As much as part of me is glad that the
world has adopted some of our hobbies and habits like Starbucks
and
human rights...another part of me sees culture as like an organic
thing and compares what we know of say the potato famine. That
event occured because only one kind of potato was grown so
when a weakness attacked one plant that was it. We need all the
cultures.For 10,000 years we have been spreading totalitarian
agriculture as a way of making a living and I wonder if this is such
a good idea it has almost wiped out all the other ways to make a
living...biologically one culture seems like a better target for
breakdown. That focus on totalitarian agriculture is probably the
reason great cultures have demolished in the past...
bo Ireally enjoyed your post about weaving. I got choked up its
such a great image and one I felt moved by in a terrific book I
read a few months ago called One River by Wade Davis. In one
chapter he is talking about the way the people insouth America
are always moving gathering supplies and trading or visiting and
they move all over the land and they call it weaving and they of
course make fabulous woven blankets and clothes and also their
stories are all a rich weaving and this notion of weaving occurs in
every aspect of their lives.
(I highly recommend One River its got so much, adventure,
ethnobotony, coc leaf chewing, explorations, anecdotes and a
spirituality that is both pragmatic and supernatural-there is no
difference)
blah blah I have so lost track of what I am saying...
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (160 of 161), Read 13 times
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From:
S. Bohinka (bohinka@riconnect.com)
Date:
Wednesday, October 04, 2000 12:30 AM
Candy,
>>Disgrace getting an award like the Booker I am so blown away
because it is such a radical book.
Is it atypical for this award to go to this kind of book?
>> On another thread here I say how Disgrace slaps the face of
European and American ethnocentricity. I still feel the sting and
am surprised to see there is mass
acceptance<<
Are you also referring to it being accepted here? Reading this in
context I guess you might be referring to the Booker. Would you
expect that there might be more 'controversy' over it here?
>>people in South America are always moving gathering supplies
and trading or visiting and they move all over the land and they
call it weaving and they of course make fabulous woven blankets
and clothes<<<
Thanks for the book suggestion. It's amazing what symbolism
some of this has. Our book group read The Farming of Bones by
Edwindge Dandicat---the title is what they call cutting sugarcane
(and was also a reference to the slaughter in Haiti in the 1930s).
Bo
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (161 of 161), Read 12 times
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From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, October 04, 2000 12:39 AM
Bo, I just read The Serpent and The Rainbow by Wade Davis
about Haiti. Like JUST read it. How funny.
No, I meant a slap in the face to us here in North America and to
Europe, not the Booker prize....but the content and magnifying
glass on our ethnocetricity. On our broken sense of community
and family and marriage in modern culture is rejected by Lucy as
she takes a new tribe. Her father taking it too. It's only
ethnocentricity that makes us not understand her motives and
think they are anarchists. Petrus was not an anarchist, he had a
very structured community that cars for each other and protects
too. The old way was over farming, and slavery, and
apartheid...the old way being the European and North American
ways ...ouch!!!
hey anybody read TIME article on divorce? I thought it was out of
it because it's not the divorce that messes up the kids, it's seeing
parents, role models act like vindictive petty creeps that
tramatizes a kid. Parents staying friends, and still rearing kids
won't mess them up....but drawing lines and grudges and
mind games will)
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (162 of 171), Read 35 times
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From:
Sheila Ash (sheila_ash@talk21.com)
Date:
Wednesday, October 04, 2000 01:52 PM
Bo,
I don't know Shippley's Country of Strangers - tell, tell.
No kids here either, perhaps that where the passion comes from (
passion for
diversity I mean) especially when you see it drifting away in
others.
Candy,
Have you read El Hablador by Mario Vargas Llosa? It ages since I
have, but
your comment about South America and weaving brought it to
mind. Various
Indian groups have people who move around the villages telling
stories and
tales, in effect their aural history. The English title of The
Storyteller
is really not an adequate translation for "the one who speaks".
Following on
more from Bo's weaving discussion, there is another aspect of
weaving that
goes on here and that is the weaving of various strands of retold
experience
into the stories of a culture and a people's history especially when
there
is no written equivalent. If the world is loosing this in the
Americas and
elsewhere today, what will the world be like when our history is
forgotten?
If you like the sort of reading that your One River descriptions
suggestions, then try this one.
Sheila
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (163 of 171), Read 37 times
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From:
Sheila Ash (sheila_ash@talk21.com)
Date:
Wednesday, October 04, 2000 12:50 PM
Steve,
Oh, Out of Africa - I've never read that..when are Classics
reading it? Its
from an earlier era, so your right it could be an interesting
counterpoint.Will have to see if I can get a copy.
Sheila
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (164 of 171), Read 40 times
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From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Wednesday, October 04, 2000 01:05 PM
Out of Africa is CC's November book.
Sherry
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (165 of 171), Read 37 times
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From:
Mary Anne Papale (mapreads@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, October 04, 2000 02:08 PM
Candy, your point about Disgrace being a slap in the face of
western ethnocentricity rings so true to me. Like David, we "just
don't get it", do we? We seem to need that slap.
Metaphors be with you... MAP
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (166 of 171), Read 31 times
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From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, October 04, 2000 05:07 PM
Mary Anne you bring up a point, can art really effect us? Can it
really give us a slap a permanent slap? I mean in a different way,
is it able to show us or change us? Do people after the age of 25
or 30 just wake up one day and read something that blows them
away and makes them think completely different track than the
one they are on???
I can think of one example I have a friend of 20 years and he
called up an old girlfriend who lived a 1000 miles away and
said,how are you what are you to etc she was surprised to hear
from him and he said he just read Bridges of madison ...and
wanted to know if she had read it, no she says so off she goes
and reads it, and calls him back and says, why did you want me
to read this, whats the big deal. he says he was so affected by it
and he thought of her and would she consider hooking back up
with him. I guess that was about 5 years ago and they still live
together.
Mark Rothko kind of had that effect on me when I was in school
and went to NYC for the first time, they were so powerful the
work in person compared to photos and the size I just kind of
changed my whole way of painting myself.
I mean Disgrace suggests something but what and how far do we
take literature into our lives? Should we take it so seriously?
I don't know I just was wondering about this...in some ways the
commitment of being a reader is something that affects the way
one lives just by reading and giving time to it to think and read
other peoples ideas. To me on the Election thread, someone said
that we shouldn't talk politics on forum and I know that for
personal feelings this is wise sometimes politics can hit people in
the heart. Shoot all good politivcs should!! And I feel that
literature high or low is the most confronting philosophically when
it ranges into politics or mortallity. The act of reading IS
political...just to know what is out there...
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (167 of 171), Read 34 times
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From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, October 04, 2000 05:09 PM
Shelia, sounds like an interesting book is this fiction or non? I will
order it at library, thanks!!!
Did I mention here that I am working part time in a book store and
we have to keep 'beat 'literature and subversive literature behind
the cash? Like Chomsky? That is general practice now in book
stores, its the ones that get swiped.
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (168 of 171), Read 26 times
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From:
Robert Armstrong (rla@nac.net)
Date:
Wednesday, October 04, 2000 09:26 PM
Candy,
I've always believed that literature is capable of effecting
profound change. Using South Africa as an example, CRY, THE
BELOVED COUNTRY by Alan Paton was very influential in alerting
the world to S. A.'s racial injustice. Another great novel.
Robt
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (169 of 171), Read 24 times
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From:
S. Bohinka (bohinka@riconnect.com)
Date:
Wednesday, October 04, 2000 10:17 PM
Candy,
>>It's only ethnocentricity that makes us not understand her
motives and think they are anarchists.
Well, old Anthro major that I was, I don't think so. :)
I'll argue that Coetzee didn't write her well enough so that I could
understand her motives (couldn't be me, you know). I do think
that as an American that I could have grasped some of this had it
been written differently. Maybe my lack of knowledge about South
Africa (is this really ethnocentrism, though?) is what made the
difference.
As I mentioned, I didn't know if Coetzee was black, Afrikaner
(which I can't even spell) or white when I started this book. I also
wasn't sure until part way through which character fit into which
group. I thought I'd read it just as I would any other novel.
Sheila,
David K. Shipler's A Country of Strangers: Blacks and Whites in
America is (from the jacket cover) an exploration of the
psychological landscape where blacks and whites meet...we learn
how blacks and whites see each other, how they interpret each
other's behavior, and how certain damaging images and
assumptions seep into the actions of even the most unbiased."
It's slow reading but very thought provoking. The section I just
read is about groups on college campuses. It got me thinking
about how I would relate to some of the situations presented.
Bo
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (170 of 171), Read 17 times
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From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Thursday, October 05, 2000 01:51 AM
Bo, I understand, I have no idea what colour people were in
almost any novel I read let alone Disgrace. I don't think their
colour was relevant. I was talking about culture and ways of
living. How we live is mostly defined by how we get food. Oh
sheesh, nothing to do with skin!!! Noo I meant that Petrus
structure of culture and how he lived seems different than how
we do as a community in North America and Europe, I think our
different way of making a living is what prevents us from
understanding Lucy. I'm not sure he wanted to give us more info
than he did.
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (171 of 171), Read 16 times
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From:
Sheila Ash (sheila_ash@talk21.com)
Date:
Thursday, October 05, 2000 01:26 PM
Candy,
Fiction.
Sheila
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (172 of 180), Read 35 times
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From:
Sheila Ash (sheila_ash@talk21.com)
Date:
Tuesday, October 10, 2000 11:54 AM
Candy,
You wrote " I don't know I just was wondering about this...in
some ways the
commitment of being a reader is something that affects the way
one lives
just by reading and giving time to it to think and read other
peoples ideas.
To me on the Election thread, someone said that we shouldn't
talk politics
on forum and I know that for personal feelings this is wise
sometimes
politics can hit people in the heart. Shoot all good politivcs
should!! And
I feel that literature high or low is the most confronting
philosophically
when it ranges into politics or mortallity. The act of reading IS
political...just to know what is out there..."
This got me to thinking as well....I have to say I have not read
the
Election thread thinking it would be pure Americana, forgive me
but time is
an active prioritiser!... but I agree with you about the act of
reading
being political with a small p ( as against Party Political with a
capital
P). Lets not forget books have been burnt, printing machines
wrecked, some
people do not have the ability to read a book, some do not have
the ability
to read the book of their choice. Surely its just as appropriate
and valid
to talk about a book in terms of politics as in terms of anything
else, be
that friendships and their values, relationships, their values and
qualities, places seen and unseen, people met and unmet, music,
art,
cultures known and unknown, political regimes experienced
directly and not.
Books and the reading of books inspire - I hope we all agree
about that -
surely one thing they inspire in us is our imagination, irrespective
of
whether we liked the book or not. Our vivid imaginations probably
brought us
to reading, kept us reading and both us and our imaginations
grow on reading
more. As such readers we make links between what we've read,
what we've
experienced, what we've read about the experiences of others
and we make new
and novel connections between these. We discuss these new
connections in the
hope of inspiring further dialog with other readers, both for its
own sake
and so that we get to know them better as individuals, for
themselves. If we
don't agree with someone's view, we disagree or say nothing. We
have that
choice. In one sense everything we do is political! Much is a
manifestation
of hard political fights for rights in bygone days - be that
American
Independence or Votes for Women. Let's keep discussing
everything, we do not
have to censor the Board, we all have control of our computer's
ON/OFF
switch.
Sheila - hoping not too many will have switched off!
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (173 of 180), Read 38 times
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From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Tuesday, October 10, 2000 12:08 PM
Shelia, thanks for sharing such great inspiring thoughts. I wonder
all this because a book like Disgrace really makes me think about
how I live and how I treat others and animals. How I might judge
other ways of living and we all did here not understanding Lucy's
decision that revealed our natural and cultural fear of other ways
of making a living and I found that super interesting.
Books like Gravitys Rainbow or Catch 22 or Blood Meridian are
books that made me seriously question how I live and how we all
live in North America. Made me think about war. the Accidental
Tourist made me think differently about love. About how some
love is 'bad for you, it doesn't make you a better person'. Young
people who read Anne Rice and this was me totally when I was
young adopted wearing black and looking like the Munsters
and thinking about mortality and love and
the fragility of life and the power of love and sex to rejuvenate.All
that vampires inspire and reveal.(that is the core of the goth
movement if anyone was wondering, ha ha)
I was looking at books in a big book store yesterday and they had
a display on books that had been banned. It was really amazing
to see them all just right there. so many and Wizard of Oz was in
them!!!!(I had no idea it was banned, but I guess its because its
a story where adults are idiots and a kid has to save the day and
find out THERE IS NO GOD!, although I'm sure some other reason
was given to why it was banned)
I don't know I have to re-read your post Shelia you said so much
I've got to mull it over.
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (174 of 180), Read 33 times
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From:
Mary Anne Papale (mapreads@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, October 10, 2000 01:45 PM
Candy, I am told that the book Wizard of Oz is a metaphor for the
silver vs. gold standard of currency, very political indeed.
But going back to the points made, I am reminded of the excerpts
of John Stuart Mill's On Liberty which Denby quotes in Great
Books, which suggest that we must have a complete airing and
an understanding of all points of view in order to achieve liberty.
So let us read on, and post on, shall we?
Metaphors be with you... MAP
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (175 of 180), Read 35 times
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From:
Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date:
Wednesday, October 11, 2000 02:02 AM
I finished this book on the plane back from San Francisco Monday
morning. Don't know that I can add much to what has already
been written here. I did not see the narrator as being portrayed
quite as sympathetically as some of you - he was, of course, a
stand-in for the blindness of white South Africans. I mean, the
arrogance of the statement that all of his relationships had
enriched him in some way! No reference at all to the other people
involved - like he was having serial relationships with himself. His
involvement with the dogs at the shelter did not always ring true
for me, that compassion seemed to appear and flow from
nowhere.
I did like this book. Coetzee is a fantastic, complex writer, just
my favorite type. At this point, Disgrace does not measure up as
compared to Michael K or Barbarians, but that could change, it is
a book that grows upon reflection.
Theresa, back from attending sister's wedding on Saturday;
beautiful bride, handsome groom, Blue Angels flew over the
chapel a few times during the ceremony (hey, a military salute),
nice reception, even better impromptu party for the younger
guests in the hotel lobby afterwards; walked all over my
hometown on Sunday in gorgeous weather.
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (176 of 180), Read 29 times
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From:
Ian Marks (comfortably_numb@ecosse.net)
Date:
Wednesday, October 11, 2000 04:59 PM
>>I did not see the narrator as being portrayed quite as
sympathetically as some of you - he was, of course, a stand-in
for the blindness of white South Africans.<<
Theresa ~~
Interesting point. [Putting on devil's advocate hat] May we infer,
in similar fashion, that Petrus and the assailants are
representative of black South Africans, who see rape and assault
as a legitimate means of reclaiming their land? What interests me
here is that a large percentage of the violence in S.A. is also
perpetrated by Blacks against Blacks. Hmmm...
Ian
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (177 of 180), Read 30 times
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From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, October 11, 2000 05:40 PM
Ian: Interesting subject, indeed. Speaking of Africa, didn't I read
recently that the largest population of slaves in the world today
is in the Republic of Mauritania--blacks enslaving blacks? And that
the issue is a cultural/political hot potato that black leaders in
America and elsewhere are generally loathe to take a stand on, or
even acknowledge?
As I recall, there's a new nonfiction book about that situation.
Can't remember if it's for a popular or academic audience, though.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (178 of 180), Read 22 times
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From:
Robert Armstrong (rla@nac.net)
Date:
Wednesday, October 11, 2000 08:12 PM
Ian,
I didn't think that Petrus saw rape as a legitimate means of
reclaiming land. I thought he was silent about the subject and
how he felt about the rape was unclear. My feeling is that he did
not approve but was realistic about its likelihood.
Robt
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (179 of 180), Read 15 times
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From:
Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date:
Thursday, October 12, 2000 02:05 AM
Hmmm. I seem to have hit a nerve or two.
First, the book:
I think that Petrus is a pragmatist. He doesn't work evil, but lives
in the world as he finds it. He is no more evil than the whites who
didn't work evil, but lived in the world they found in apartheid
South Africa. The daughter is evolving into a pragmatist, like a
quick microcosm of evolution, adapting to her environment (I
know that is not a correct, scientific analogy, but you know what
I mean.)
An interesting contrast - Petrus had two wives (and potentially
three); anathema in our narrator's world. But our narrator (gosh,
his name escapes me at the moment, I'm dead tired) has probably
been with many more women in his lifetime. They mirror each
other.
Now, those nerves. I'm not sure about Ian's and Dale's point -
condemning apartheid doesn't mean accepting slavery of Africans
by Africans. It's bad no matter who is doing it. I don't think it is
true that African-Americans have been totally silent on this issue,
in fact I know it is not true, but there is definitely not much of an
uproar. I think it is true that all Americans are rather silent on
ANY issue affecting Africa. There are terrible civil wars going on
right now in Sudan, Congo and elsewhere; equally as bad as
anything in Europe in the past few years.
I do know that I'll be giving this book another read one of these
days.
Theresa
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (180 of 180), Read 9 times
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From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Thursday, October 12, 2000 04:07 AM
Theresa -- thank you for the input on how much is
heard/reported in the US on, for example, the Congo -- I have
seen some of the news on it as -- of course, Belgium has a role
and not only in the past but even now -- I don't really know what
the present role is but it definitely exists as when the more
recent troubles began there was a flurry of reports here -- from
which I gathered very little real information to help me
understand things -- beyond the fact that there is fighting going
on.
I definitely agree I will be rereading Disgrace and reading some of
the other Africa based novels which I have not read but which
CRs have mentioned here and in the past and perhaps scouting
out some current analysis of the state of various African
countries -- such as Congo and Kenya and whatever one of them
it is which includes Southern Rhodesia -- it's Zimbabwe, isn't it?
Dottie -- thinking CRs are hitting nerves and having nerves quite
a bit lately -- but the threads are certainly growing!
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (181 of 198), Read 41 times
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From:
Ian Marks (comfortably_numb@ecosse.net)
Date:
Thursday, October 12, 2000 05:40 PM
Everyone ~~
These posts certainly have covered a wide range of topics! My
mind still spins with the whole initial starting point of all that
follows, viz. society's unwritten law which says that it is in some
way bad for a middle-aged man to be attracted to a woman 30
years his junior (and, I suspect, have the feelings to some extent
reciprocated). Obviously, Coetzee's whole tale evolves from that
point.
I think I'm rambling. What I'm getting at is that the above
scenario is a no-no. Yet we are somehow more 'conditioned' for
women to be brutalised - and feel it is not worthwhile to report it
- and for people (black or white) to get their way by brute force.
When I see the book in this sort of light, I wonder if Coetzee isn't
simply trying to tell us that we've got our priorities (i.e. 'the
rules') all wrong.
Blabbering over. Where I am it's 11.23 p.m. and I should be
staggering off to bed. See you all tomorrow!
Ian
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (182 of 198), Read 42 times
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From:
S. Bohinka (bohinka@riconnect.com)
Date:
Thursday, October 12, 2000 08:13 PM
Theresa,
>>An interesting contrast - Petrus had two wives (and potentially
three); anathema in our narrator's world. But
This is something I didn't see before. Yeah, David had more but
since he just @#$@#$ed 'em and didn't marry them, it was OK.
Ian, I don't think that it was the attraction to the younger
woman that was 'bad' (though it has been increasingly been
'going out of style' in recent years) but rather the inequality of
'power' in the relationship. A teacher/student relationship is IMO
similar to the shrink/patient or mentor/apprentice one. One of
unequal power. (I'm reading another book right now where a
woman is letting her painting teacher beat her up. Unequal
power.)
That's why, I guess, I saw it as abuse or certainly bordering on
it.
Dottie, I certainly listened with interest when our Presidential
candidates answered the question about Rwanda. If you haven't
seen it I would recommend, We Wish To Inform You that
Tomorrow We Will Be Killed With our Families by Philip Gourevitch.
I saw him show slides and talk about the book on TV and it was
more than shocking.
>>Yet we are somehow more 'conditioned' for women to be
brutalized - and feel it is not worthwhile to report it - and for
people (black or white) to get their way by brute force.
Sadly, Ian, I think that you're right. Has it always been this way
and are we more sensitized to it or have things changed?
>>When I see the book in this sort of light, I wonder if Coetzee
isn't simply trying to tell us that we've got our priorities (i.e. 'the
rules') all wrong.
Yes, this was stated a number of ways before but not as
succinctly.
Any ideas about what we can do about it?
Bo
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (183 of 198), Read 38 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Friday, October 13, 2000 03:08 AM
BO -- WHEW!!! I'm going to be a while getting through your post
here but ----.
FIRST -- I think Ian hit the mark with the age difference thing
being the hinge point and your additional insight into the power
inequality is secondary though not by much -- here's why --
anytime there is a large age difference just the longer life
experience creates an unequal power situation IMO.
SECOND -- when were the Presidential Candidates answering a
question on Rwanda? In the debates? And what did they SAY in
response? I am NOT seeing any of this on my thirty some
channels of European television, Bo, not even on CNN which is a
pathetic entity in my opinion for being of any REAL use as far as
informing viewers. SO -- maybe you should e-mail the response
to this part of this post so we don't tie up the thread with
present politics.
BUT is this We Wish to Inform You ... a book title? I was
assuming it was but then wasn't sure.
THIRD -- the human condition and priorities in chaos -- that's
how it is. As for what do we do about it -- we start with
ourselves which is the only human in this universe over which we
have any real control -- though it isn't easy for most of us to
even control our selves, it is true that we can only control our
own acts and no one else's. Just MHO.
Dottie -- who continues to be glad that she finally grabbed and
read Disgrace!
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (184 of 198), Read 33 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ian Marks (comfortably_numb@ecosse.net)
Date:
Friday, October 13, 2000 03:16 PM
Was just flicking through Disgrace again and stumbled over the
following, which I had forgotten about (it's from the end of ch.3,
p.28 in my Vintage ed.):
Melanie: 'I wanted to say, I know I've missed a lot of classes,
but the production is taking up all my time.'
David: 'I understand. You are telling me your drama work has
priority. It would have helped if you had explained earlier.'
So much for Melanie skipping classes because of her liaison with
David. So much for him favouring her with good grades because
of it.
Was Melanie summoned before a committee to account for her
absences from class? Don't think so.
Then, on p.29:
'Do you do this kind of thing often?' she asks afterwards.
'Do what?'
'Sleep with your students. Have you slept with Amanda?'
He does not answer. Amanda is another student in the class. A
wispy blonde. He has no interest in Amanda. (My emphasis.)
Just thought I'd throw these in. It's often these little exchanges
which shed more light on what's really going on than the bigger
scenes.
As I was trying to say in my previous post, there are so many
aspects of life / society that we are asked to re-examine.
David-Melanie: age-difference relationships.
Lucy: people going off to do their own thing (Thoreau's
drummer!).
David-Lucy: father-daughter relationships.
Power.
P.c'ness.
Race.
etc.
Plus the assaults on Lucy and David (a sort of metaphor for the
white 'rape' of South Africa, now being revisited on the white
man?)
Ian
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (185 of 198), Read 34 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date:
Friday, October 13, 2000 04:36 PM
Ian, people don't always say what they mean, or even know what
they mean when they say it. There is a nice French word I can't
remember at the moment for this type of deflection.
Theresa
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (186 of 198), Read 32 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Pres Lancaster (plancast@slip.net)
Date:
Friday, October 13, 2000 06:51 PM
THERESA
Isn't that what I've been saying ?
Pres,
How do I know what I think until I see what I say ? (Psst! Do you
think he knows what he thinks ?)
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (187 of 198), Read 28 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
S. Bohinka (bohinka@riconnect.com)
Date:
Friday, October 13, 2000 10:19 PM
Dottie,
Yes, We Wish to Inform You that Tomorrow We will Die with Our
Families (if I remembered it correctly this time) is the title of the
book. I gotta learn HTML. I have to admit that I didn't get all the
way through the book.
Others here might be able to give an opinion on how accurate a
job he did reporting 'what happened' in Rwanda.
The second presidential debate when asked if what the US did
was appropriate, Bush said, "yes." Gore said, "Yes, but we should
have sent humanitarian aid sooner."
Bo
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (188 of 198), Read 32 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Friday, October 13, 2000 10:53 PM
An amazing book on Rwanda from a few years ago is, A Season In
Hell...
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (189 of 198), Read 31 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Friday, October 13, 2000 11:02 PM
Oops, sorry its called Season of Blood by Fergus.
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (190 of 198), Read 34 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Saturday, October 14, 2000 02:55 AM
Thanks, Bo and Candy, titles duly noted -- and I think I ran
across a link to the texts of the debates but I'll yell if I can't
locate them. Disgrace is definitely a book which will stand up to
repeat readings and discussion -- good for those CRs around here
who are looking for books for in person groups!
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (191 of 198), Read 28 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@hotmail.com)
Date:
Saturday, October 14, 2000 08:44 PM
Ian,
I agree with Theresa. The girl had to give David an excuse, so
that was a good one. She was avoiding him is what is evident to
me. I am a teacher, and I know that students think nothing of
lying to save themselves. It is okay in their culture to lie to
adults.
Jane
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (192 of 198), Read 29 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Saturday, October 14, 2000 09:32 PM
You know what, I took this such a different way and I found it
distressing this part about her missing classes, you see I thought
she was giving an excuse because she was avoiding HIM. That
she was having a not traumatic thats too dramatic a word but
she was experiencing something creepy about him.
And I was taking the teacher/student thing in a liberal way for
the most part that it happens and most times both parties are
okay or benefiting, but this was a hint to me that she was a little
messed up by it...I had forgotten about that part of the story...
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (193 of 198), Read 28 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
S. Bohinka (bohinka@riconnect.com)
Date:
Saturday, October 14, 2000 11:02 PM
Candy,
The book went back to the library but as I remember the story
she went back and forth about avoiding him. But, when she
actually ended up missing classes later it was because of the
drama thing. But then, I could be misremembering.
I have a feeling this is another area where Coetzee left some
holes so that we'd wonder what was really going on.
Does he do this in his other books?
Bo
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (194 of 198), Read 38 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date:
Sunday, October 15, 2000 12:48 AM
The drama thing was the excuse. She was missing classes
because 1) she was uncomfortable around the old letch (I'm not
saying she wasn't a bit attracted to him too); and 2) her creepy
boyfriend was giving her a bad time about the old letch (of
course, the creepy part is told to us entirely from the old letch's
POV, so who really knows?)
She may, in fact, drama student that she was, have been
enjoying being at the center of this little melodrama,
nevertheless, the play keeping her busy thing was her cover, not
her actual motive. I am convinced.
Why do you all buy anything anyone says here? They are all
complicated people living in a complicated world.
Take for example the prof's "realization" that this girl "might" have
meant something to him after all. Did this realization come to him
when she was still around? Nope. It was all me, me, me at that
point. Despite his stoic facade to the comittee, the guy still felt
the need to justify his actions to himself later on.
After all, he was living a pretty barren life, emotionally, up to the
point he started caring for the dogs. Buying love once a week
(another person he could feel in control with, just as with the
much younger girl). Not often in contact with his daughter (and
what was up with that step-father, anyway, that made the girl
want to leave Holland for South Africa? I know this is the current
motivation for many ills, but it might explain a lot about the
choices daughter made and was making.)
The ex-wife was obviously still fond of the prof, when they meet
later in the book, but even she wasn't buying any of his "it was
maybe true love" b.s.
Theresa
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (195 of 198), Read 38 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Sunday, October 15, 2000 04:12 AM
Theresa -- good point on the drama student enjoying a drama in
her own life but also the pull between that and her real life
boyfriend and the involvement with David seems on target.
The thing is -- this young girl grew up in SA and has gone
through the turn around in that country -- the political and social
situation is far different for her perhaps than what we might
understand of the student mentality as we know it -- Jane? --
am I wrong to think there would be some major differences here?
And I also noted the something not tight feeling I got about that
stepfather -- and I think it does have bearing on Lucy's decisions
but we just never hear anything directly about this so it gets
very hard to pin down facts.
Which may be why I said and will repeat -- this will hold up to
repeat reading and discussion. And it makes us think of all these
little angles which is a good thing when we are generally so blind
as to the underlying fine details in these situations. Both the
personal ones and the political/social ones.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (196 of 198), Read 33 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Sunday, October 15, 2000 08:43 AM
Theresa, I agree with you. The details of the book are slipping
away, but I do know that I never bought his "love" for the girl. It
reminded me of the twisted obsession in Lolita. It was all
object-related, not person related, and very self-centered. Caring
for the dogs jarred something loose in him, made him "love"
something other than himself. But even the use of the word "love"
in context with the dogs, seems a little off to me.
Sherry
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (197 of 198), Read 37 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Lynn Isvik (washualum@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, October 15, 2000 09:06 AM
Here's my take on David's "love" for the dogs (and I put love in
quotes because I agree with you, Dottie, that it doesn't quite
ring true for me either). I think that the euthanasia of the dogs in
the shelter parallels David's attitude about his life at this point.
These are dogs that no one wants anymore.... and to some
degree David feels that no one wants him anymore -- that he is
"unlovable". Even Lucy doesn't seem to want him. The dog with
the withered leg is even physically unattractive, as David feels
that he is no longer attractive.
David is living his life as if he might as well be dead too... sleeping
in the rented room, spending all his days sitting in the corner of
the shelter yard playing the banjo and writing something he
acknowledges is going nowhere but in circles. I think he wishes
someone would care for him in his "death" the way he cares for
the dogs in their deaths. However, David says that this will be his
life until the baby comes... maybe the baby will also represent a
rebirth in his life if it helps him redefine himself.
Lynn
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (198 of 198), Read 28 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Sunday, October 15, 2000 05:02 PM
Ian, so glad you pointed out those passages. Again, we were
slipping into simply repeating generally received thinking rather
than paying attention to the text of the book in front of us.
For example, the generally received thinking would be that
Melanie was precluded from saying no to David and refusing to
have sex with him because of his position of power over her. I
don't think that conclusion is so obviously supported in this case
by this text at all.
Ian, if you are so inclined, take a look again at the passage at
the end of Chapter 21 involving David's encounter with the young
prostitute("younger even than Melanie"), and let me know what
you think of David's epiphany and self-assessment there. It
seems to me that he has come nearly full circle as the book nears
its conclusion.
Steve
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (199 of 200), Read 24 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ian Marks (comfortably_numb@ecosse.net)
Date:
Friday, October 27, 2000 02:05 PM
Steve ~~
Interesting scene, which, I confess, had slipped my mind. It does seem
as though he's coming full circle, although maybe there's a different slant
on things now. At the start of the book, his encounters with prostitutes
(or the prostitute) were purely an expression of his sex life as it was at
the time - empty. The pro was all he had. With the young pro at the
end, I see a sense of almost helplessness and despondency: Melanie is
gone, he experienced something he didn't think he still had the capacity
to experience and knows he can never get it back. It's almost as though
now he's on the skids. (No doubt cynics would say that he has been for
some time [g].)
Ian
Topic:
Re: DISGRACE (200 of 200), Read 25 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Friday, October 27, 2000 02:10 PM
A comparison of this drugged-up street walker with the prostitute at the
beginning of the book would certainly indicate despondency if not a
serious case of the skids. "Full circle" may not be the best description
after all.
Ian, I need your help with some Burns down in the poetry conference.
Steve
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J.M. Coetzee
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