Amazon.com:
Hugely admired by Tolstoy, David Copperfield is the novel that draws most closely from Charles Dickens's own life. Its eponymous hero, orphaned as a boy, grows up to discover love and happiness, heartbreak and sorrow amid a cast of eccentrics, innocents, and villains. Praising Dickens's power of invention, Somerset Maugham wrote: "There were never such people as the Micawbers, Peggotty and Barkis, Traddles, Betsey Trotwood and Mr. Dick, Uriah Heep and his mother. They are fantastic inventions of Dickens's exultant imagination... you can never quite forget them."
This Modern Library Paperback Classics edition includes a new Introduction by Pulitzer Prize finalist David Gates, in addition to new explanatory notes.
Topic:
David Copperfield (23 of 47), Read 66 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, February 26, 2001 09:03 AM
I'm only partway through this one, but it has to be the most engaging and
mind-blowing Dickens I've read. Almost surrealistic in its grimness, but always
with that dark humor just underneath. And so potent a gallery of odd
characters it's amazing they fit between two covers.
Could anybody enlighten me about the business of the "caul" Davy was born
with? I know it's an extra flap of skin, but apparently the family auctioned it
off (?) as a talisman against death by drowning. Either that, or I misread this
section badly. My reference books say zip on this; any daylight would be
appreciated.
Go, Dickens, Go!
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
David Copperfield (24 of 47), Read 61 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Monday, February 26, 2001 11:32 AM
I know Dale, how amazing is this!!! IfI am standing here I hold my hand
above my eyebrow thats Shakespeare. just by my tip of my nose...thats
Dickens. He's the only one who seems at all near to Shakespeare.
The characters! My god, at what ever level it is so easy to see that this writer
is a people person. I love Peggotty how shes always busting buttons in her
excitement and passion! And I cried when he came home for winter holidays
and Peggotty and his mum and the baby had the night alone away from the
creeps. My god, Uriah Heep is one thing, but those beats the Murdstones just
oh it made me inconsolable what he felt when he sees his new family.
Isn't it brilliant the open ended views of what makes a family!!! Dickens was
way more liberal with what makes a 'family unit' than what we have seen as
*family* to politicians and pop culture images of family now-a-days or at least
up until 10 yrs ago.
And to me, it is a stroke of brilliance all the names...the name changes and
WHo IS David Copperfeild!!! His name is so many changed versions. And how
delightful when we find out Peggottys first name is the same as his mothers.
How frustrating to see the various people who use others....the Murdstones
using and sucking the blood from Clara, and the waiter eating up Davids
allowance...
Page after page is just mind boggling his grasp on different people...and how
important the kind gesture is.
I also have laughed out loud at some of these characters and his
descriptions sometimes start so serious and then boom a punch line the
characters are walking humourous anecdotes...
Topic:
David Copperfield (25 of 47), Read 64 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, February 26, 2001 12:24 PM
Dale, I think a caul is a bit of the amniotic sac, still clinging to the baby, and it
was considered to be good luck.
DC is a whopping good read, isn't it?
Ruth
“There ain’t no answer. There ain’t going to be any answer. There never has
been an answer. That’s the answer.” Gertrude Stein
Topic:
David Copperfield (26 of 47), Read 64 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Tuesday, February 27, 2001 01:24 PM
In days long past, a caul ( a thin membrane completely covering the face)
would, now and then, be mistaken for a birth defect and the newborn would
be smothered, usually at the hands of the maternal grandmother. But when
recognized for what it was, simply a thin membrane, it was often considered
an omen of special divine blessing, and would be preserved.
My family is from a small town off the east coast of Italy across the Adriatic
Sea from Greece. Stories in my family have been handed down through the
generations. One such story involved an infant about to be smothered by my
great grandmother, when the caul, luckily, slipped off.
I know this particular caul was preserved.
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield (27 of 47), Read 63 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, February 27, 2001 01:44 PM
Beej: Wow! Now, there hangs a tale.
Thanks for the great info.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
David Copperfield (28 of 47), Read 65 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Tuesday, February 27, 2001 02:06 PM
Dale...having been born with this caul affected my great uncle throughout his
entire life. He was esteemed as being one step beneath the angels
specifically because of the caul..that's how great its divine blessing was
regarded...unfortunately, he was a believer of his own publicity and an
arrogant, self serving bastard who caused nothing but anguish for many. All
because of the caul.
Yes, there hangs quite a tale.
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield (29 of 47), Read 61 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, February 27, 2001 02:09 PM
What a story. So when are you writing this book, Beej?
Ruth
“There ain’t no answer. There ain’t going to be any answer. There never has
been an answer. That’s the answer.” Gertrude Stein
Topic:
David Copperfield (30 of 47), Read 60 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Tuesday, February 27, 2001 02:22 PM
Ruth, I have been blessed with a richness of such stories, each story passed
from generation to generation to generation with ethereal, hauntingly
beautiful feeling. I have written these stories, but only to give to my children
so they might continue to relate them to their children,
and their children to theirs,,
on and on and on.
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield (31 of 47), Read 57 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Tuesday, February 27, 2001 02:32 PM
That's very cool.
I was terribly moved when David looks back on his mothers grave with the
baby and sees his childhoods end there and that part of his life gone and
ended.
This again is so ahead of the theories we have now about transitions and
ends of childhood. He really is remarkable.
Notice how Uriah Heep is a red head! He seems so supernatural and clammy
like death...
Topic:
David Copperfield (32 of 47), Read 58 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, February 27, 2001 03:11 PM
Beej, I do think you should write those stories up for others,too, either as a
memoir, or turn them into a novel. What a richness!
Ruth
“There ain’t no answer. There ain’t going to be any answer. There never has
been an answer. That’s the answer.” Gertrude Stein
Topic:
David Copperfield (33 of 47), Read 58 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Tuesday, February 27, 2001 03:38 PM
Beej,
How wonderful to have all that family history. My father's parents were
immigrants who both died before he was even married, so we got no family
history on that end. My mother's aunt wrote a family history in which she
traced back her family to Rollo the Viking. When she got stuck, she reportedly
just made things up, so it is difficult to know if there is any truth in it. The rest
of them were too busy hiding the skeletons in the closet to hand much down.
Your family traditions and stories sound very special to me.
Ann
Topic:
David Copperfield (34 of 47), Read 60 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, February 27, 2001 03:54 PM
They do to me, too, Ann. I come from a background similar to Beej's,
first-generation Italian. But my family tried so hard to become American, that
many of the stories died with them.
Ruth
“There ain’t no answer. There ain’t going to be any answer. There never has
been an answer. That’s the answer.” Gertrude Stein
Topic:
David Copperfield (35 of 47), Read 38 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Tuesday, February 27, 2001 05:20 PM
Ann, Its the skeletons that make the best stories, I do believe. In fact, I am
perfectly willing to tell you I had one great-great uncle (but not the one with
the caul) who went to prison for killing somebody in a fist fight. (He was
never the same after his release, and removed the doors from his house so
the donkeys and chickens could wander at will in and out of his kitchen.)
Ruth, my family was just the opposite and fought fiercely to hold onto their
heritage.
In fact, my sisters and I are the only family members who do not speak
Italian fluently.
Dale, I re-read the section on the caul and have a question. The caul was
offered for sale twice, am I correct? The first time it didn't sell, but instead
sold at auction 10 years later to an elderly woman. Was your take that his
mother tried to sell it the first time, and does this not strike you as odd,
considering what we know of her nature and attachment to David?
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield (36 of 47), Read 36 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Tuesday, February 27, 2001 05:35 PM
I have decided this is the most perfect novel I have ever read.
Perfect.
Absolutely flawless.
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield (37 of 47), Read 31 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Robert Armstrong (rla@nac.net)
Date:
Tuesday, February 27, 2001 07:27 PM
Beej,
I'm 75 pages in and so far it's flawless.
Robt
Topic:
David Copperfield (38 of 47), Read 29 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, February 27, 2001 07:36 PM
I'm so glad you're enjoying DC, Beej and Robt. It's a whale of a novel, isn't it?
Ruth
“There ain’t no answer. There ain’t going to be any answer. There never has
been an answer. That’s the answer.” Gertrude Stein
Topic:
David Copperfield (39 of 47), Read 33 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Tuesday, February 27, 2001 07:43 PM
I get such a charge out of all the secondary characters. Its as if an entirely
new story could be written around each one of them.
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield (40 of 47), Read 29 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, February 27, 2001 08:04 PM
Beej & All: That's mighty high praise for a novel, but I'm inclined to agree. I
knew that Dickens was a genius at drawing characters, but if anybody had
told me he could write a page-turner I'd have been mucho skeptical.
Whichever writer/teacher (John Gardner, maybe?) said that good fiction
technique lay in creating "a seamless and unbroken dream" was surely
talking about DAVID COPPERFIELD. This is one of the most solid pieces of
writing I've ever come across.
You're right about the caul detail at the very beginning, too. It was
auctioned, but the only bid was "two pounds, and the rest in sherry," so the
item was withdrawn. It was the source of a community raffle 10 years later,
and was won by a lady who lived to be 92. It does seem out of character
that Davy's mother would have sold it, but a lot about that time period is a
mystery to me.
Hell of a novel, though. The characters...large to small, heroes to villains...are
real to me. I can see them, and believe them.
More later. Gotta get back to the book.
(Who nominated this one, by the way? I owe them a sherry.)
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
David Copperfield (41 of 47), Read 27 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Tuesday, February 27, 2001 08:16 PM
"a seamless and unbroken dream"..incredibly well put.
Dale, these characters sure do seem real. And even with the secondary
characters the reader comes away with a feeling of almost a 'three
dimensionality'..a feeling that these characters have a past and a future,
unwritten about, but nevertheless, there.
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield (42 of 47), Read 25 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, February 27, 2001 08:20 PM
Hooray for Barkis and Pegotty!
Ruth
“There ain’t no answer. There ain’t going to be any answer. There never has
been an answer. That’s the answer.” Gertrude Stein
Topic:
David Copperfield (43 of 47), Read 25 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Tuesday, February 27, 2001 09:26 PM
Dale, you owe Sherry a sherry. I'll redeem it whenever you're ready.
Sherry
Topic:
David Copperfield (44 of 47), Read 23 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Tuesday, February 27, 2001 09:57 PM
I've probably said this before around here, but the great middle-aged
revelation I experienced (10 years ago or so anyway) was that Dickens was
so damned funny! And David Copperfield is one of the pluperfect examples of
this.
I simply don't have time right now to reread -- but this is absolutely,
bar-none, one of the great books I've read in my entire life on any number of
levels. But the particular thing that struck me about this book (and Oliver
Twist too) was that there is a definite modern sensibility in the humor of it,
that is simply not there in so many 19th century novels, and is absolutely
absent (I beg to be contradicted with reading suggestions) in the 18th
century or before. This modernity of the humor -- of the social commentary --
really interests me about Dickens and makes me believe it is one of the
reasons he is regarded as such a great novelist.
Dick In The 21st Century
Topic:
David Copperfield (45 of 47), Read 24 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Tuesday, February 27, 2001 10:00 PM
I agree with you totally, Dick. I just cackled out loud on about page 550
about Traddle's hair. The man was an absolute genius at finding funny stuff
in the mundane. And I just crack up every time I think of "Janet! Donkeys!"
Sherry
Topic:
David Copperfield (46 of 47), Read 25 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Tuesday, February 27, 2001 10:11 PM
Dick, I agree with you, too...some of his descriptions are simply delightful.
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield (47 of 47), Read 12 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Wednesday, February 28, 2001 12:13 AM
The donkeys! Omigawd, I'd forgotten about the donkeys.
Ruth
“There ain’t no answer. There ain’t going to be any answer. There never has
been an answer. That’s the answer.” Gertrude Stein
Topic:
David Copperfield (48 of 51), Read 9 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 28, 2001 07:35 AM
The intro to my book says Mr. Micawber grew out of Dicken's father, Dora out
of his old sweetheart Maria Beadnell and Tommy Traddles out of his best
friend Thomas Talfourd. I bet Mr. Talfourd had a problem with this
'stick-em-up' hair and its amusing to me that Dickens immortalized his best
friend's hair problem.
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield (49 of 51), Read 15 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 28, 2001 07:59 AM
Dick, I have a good friend who is working on his Master's degree in 17th and
18th century literature and asked him about humor in pre 19th century
novels. He mentioned JOSEPH ANDREWS by Henry Fielding.
I'm trying my damnest to persuade this friend to come into CR...he would be
in his glory here... but he is actually working on a double Master's in literature
and says he doesn't have the time. I'll get him in here eventually. (He's also
an expert on Faulkner...bordering on the fanatical about him.)
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield (50 of 51), Read 8 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 28, 2001 08:38 AM
Sherry! My hat's off to you for nominating this one. One sherry (lower case),
redeemable anytime here in Birmingham and/or at CR 2001.
Dick: I think you hit two nails on the head, with "so damned funny" and
"modern sensibilities." This one keeps blowing me away. I love Aunt Betsey,
the good proto-feminist{G}, who tries to train up her long string of
protegees/housemaids as good male-haters, but they keep "marrying the
baker" and forsaking her.
And Betsey's dressing-down of the evil Murdstones over their treatment of
David and his mom is a classic "feel-good" scene, for me. Can't remember
when I've wanted so strongly to hug a character...Betsey and Mr. Dick both,
in fact.
Lord, what a story.
Janet! The donkeys!
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
David Copperfield (51 of 51), Read 8 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 28, 2001 08:46 AM
Dale, Have you gotten to the chapter entitled "Dora's Aunts" yet? I won't
give too much away, but the description of these two little birdlike ladies,
Miss Lavinia and Miss Clarissa, is just great! They remind me so much of the
two sisters whose papa 'owned the recipe' on The Waltons, that I wonder if
Earl Hamner 'stole' them from DC.
(Sherry, what page are you on?)
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield (52 of 58), Read 31 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 28, 2001 08:54 AM
Beej: Dora's aunts haven't appeared yet. I got to page 275 last night (of the
923 in my Modern Library paperback, circa 1950).
I hear what you're saying, though. It just dawned on me last night that I
have known somebody like nearly all these characters. Oddballs though they
be (because they be?) they're nonetheless overwhelmingly familiar and
believable to me. Not a cardboard villain or hero in the lot of 'em.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
David Copperfield (53 of 58), Read 30 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 28, 2001 10:27 AM
The intensity with which we still react to Dicken's characters 150 years after
the fact is interesting. I suspect that this has something to do with how
closely we identify with our basic Anglo-American culture -- about which
Dickens wrote. In that vein, I wonder if people not steeped in Anglo-American
culture respond as strongly and as favorably to Dickens work as do we.
Anyone know how the Japanese view Dickens? Or the Russians? Or the
French?
Dick In The 21st Century
Topic:
David Copperfield (54 of 58), Read 29 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Wednesday, February 28, 2001 10:39 AM
Beej, I just turned the corner on p. 600 last night. My edition has a little over
800 pages. So I'm in the home stretch. I love the little bird-aunts too. They
even pick up crumbs and bits of sugar in a pecking fashion (with their fingers,
of course). I remember loving this when I read it about 25 years ago, and I
was really looking forward to a reread. It's not disappointing me a bit.
Sherry
Topic:
David Copperfield (55 of 58), Read 36 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 28, 2001 10:44 AM
Dick: Intriguing point, about the Anglo-American angle of Dickens. As old and
comparatively formal as the writing is, the sentence constructions and the
characters' thoughts seem as natural as breathing, to me.
It also just occurred to me that I've run across some "obsolete" word usages
(though none comes to mind, at present) that didn't faze me a whit because
they were part of the everyday speech of my grandparents and
great-grandparents (Scots/Irish/Anglo) and are in my earliest memories.
It would indeed be interesting to know how/if this Zeitgeist (gee, had they
even invented Zeitgeists, back then?{G}) translates to totally different
cultures.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
David Copperfield (56 of 58), Read 28 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 28, 2001 11:27 AM
"...characters swarm and life flows into every creek and cranny, some
common feeling -youth, gaiety, hope- envelops the tumult, brings the
scattered parts together, and invests the most perfect of all Dicken's novels
with an atmosphere of beauty."
Virginia Woolf (on David
Copperfield)from an essay
published in 1925.
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield (57 of 58), Read 24 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
S. Bohinka (bohinka@riconnect.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 28, 2001 11:42 AM
Dale,
Since this has been around so long I wonder if we'd any clues as to how this
was accepted by different cultures by finding out which languages it *wasn't*
translated into? (I'd guess that it'd be very widely translated but I really
haven't a clue. How does one find this out?)
Bo
Topic:
David Copperfield (58 of 58), Read 7 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 28, 2001 12:21 PM
Bo: Good point. Dick is the Searchmaster Extraordinaire, here. Maybe he can
figure out how to do that.
In the meantime, I determined with a quick search that the online forum "The
Charles Dickens Society" has a branch in Kobe, Japan.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
David Copperfield (59 of 64), Read 18 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 28, 2001 02:51 PM
I've really enjoyed all of your notes. I've been busy with tests and grades (we
only have 8 week sessions), so I'll be late joining you in the discussion.
Hopefully I'll be ready in 10 days or so. I hope the discussion will still be going
strong by then.
Ann
Topic:
David Copperfield (60 of 64), Read 19 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
David Moody (davidmoody@prodigy.net)
Date:
Wednesday, February 28, 2001 03:26 PM
Without putting in too much time on this, I found translations of David
Copperfield in:
Arabic, Armenian, Basque, Chinese, Czech, Danish, Dutch, Finnish, French,
Gaelic, Georgian, German, Hebrew, Hungarian, Icelandic, Italian, Japanese,
Korean, Lettish, Persian, Polish, Portuguese, Rumanian, Russian,
Serbo-Croatian (both Roman and Cyrillic alphabets), Slovenian, Spanish,
Swahili, Swedish, Tigrinya, Ukrainian, Yiddish
There are undoubtedly others.
Richard Armour mentions an 80-volume absorbent edition...
David
Topic:
David Copperfield (61 of 64), Read 19 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 28, 2001 03:30 PM
David: Amazing!
Pardon my ignorance, but...
This "absorbent edition"...it isn't, like, printed on Charmin or something, is it?
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
David Copperfield (62 of 64), Read 21 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 28, 2001 03:39 PM
Oh, my! Can you just imagine Aunt Betsey in Yiddish?
Ann, I was wondering where you were...
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield (63 of 64), Read 13 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 28, 2001 06:16 PM
Ann-
I'm tickled you'll be joining late, as I'm in the same boat. I had decided not to
go for a re-read, but after reading the posts, I decided to go for the gold.
Let's see.... if I read 425 pages tonight, and 425 pages tomorrow night, I'll only
be two days late to the discussion.
What a joy this book is! I've laughed out loud several times.
RE: the caul - apparently, they were considered talismans against drowning (or
drowndeading, as Mr. Peggotty says) at sea. The old lady proved its
effectiveness when she died at 92 in her own bed. No meandering or drowning
for her.:-)
I've always loved the way Dickens matches names to his characters.
"Murdstone" makes me think of a cold, unfeeling murderer.
I enjoyed the contrast between the formidable Aunt Betsy and the steely Miss
Murdstone. Aunt Betsy has warmth, movement and vibrancy in her manner
(remember that bonnet swinging from her arm?) and Miss Murdstone is a stolid,
motionless rock. Even her hobby reflects cold strength - stringing steel beads.
Only 375 more pages for tonight...........
Topic:
David Copperfield (64 of 64), Read 3 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
S. Bohinka (bohinka@riconnect.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 28, 2001 07:24 PM
I'm only in the beginning of the book too. Too many things encroaching on my
reading time.
I figured David'd find some of these translation. My observation is that it does
seem to be pretty Western-oriented. We have Japanese, Chinese and Korean
but no Thai, Vietnamese, etc.
Bo
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (65 of 68), Read 9 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Trudy Ward (biblolphelia1@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, March 01, 2001 08:01 PM
Why do you think Dickens wrote this book? I have my thoughts on the
subject but just wondered what ideas others might have.
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (66 of 68), Read 10 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Thursday, March 01, 2001 08:06 PM
This is not a smart remark: I thought he did it for the money.
Dick In The 21st Century
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (67 of 68), Read 9 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Thursday, March 01, 2001 08:15 PM
Oh, Dick...
Trudy, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.
(though, come to think of it, money is usually a BIG motivator.)
Beej
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (68 of 68), Read 5 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Pres Lancaster (plancast@neteze.com)
Date:
Thursday, March 01, 2001 08:27 PM
I have never read that Dickens wrote anything other than for the
money. On the other hand, the things he "wrote from his heart" were
his most successful, money-making ? products ? works ? creations ?
I fervently believe that his place and power are due to his "living" his
texts, mostly in reality, sometimes in "real" imagination.
FRUMIOUS BANDERSNATCH, FRIEND OF OGDRED WEARY
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (70 of 86), Read 39 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Trudy Ward (biblolphelia1@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, March 01, 2001 10:40 PM
I am sure that Dickens did write books for the money. But, my question is,
why did he write this particular book. He was popular by the time he wrote it
and could probably have sold anything he wrote. Because he was writing in
installments more was better than less. But, why this subject, why these
characters, why the internal monolog?
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (71 of 86), Read 36 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Friday, March 02, 2001 09:02 AM
Trudy: From what I understand, DAVID COPPERFIELD is the most
autobiographical novel Dickens wrote, and his own personal favorite. I think I
read somewhere that he had written pieces of a traditional memoir off and
on, was not satisfied with them, and finally turned to this novel to tell his
story, even though the elements and characters are switched around a great
deal. After DC was written, he apparently felt no need for an autobiography.
I also read a critic who said DC is Dickens' most lasting and enjoyable work
because, of all his novels, it isn't topical and has no political agenda, factors
that many feel weakened his other books.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (72 of 86), Read 36 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Robert Armstrong (rla@nac.net)
Date:
Friday, March 02, 2001 09:11 AM
The Murdstones are Dursley prototypes, of the Harry Potter series, don't you
think? There's even alliteration in the names.
Robt
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (73 of 86), Read 30 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Trudy Ward (biblolphelia1@aol.com)
Date:
Friday, March 02, 2001 01:10 PM
Dale,
While I agree that DC is his most autobiographical work and that it is not
particularly political,I do think that Dickens had an agenda. He believes that
hard work and good moral principles are the best guides to a good life. And
DC, the character, is the embodiment of those ideas. While he does not
over-congratulate himself on achieving these ideals (always giving much
credit to Agnes, Aunt Betsy, Peggarty,Mr. Peggarty, etc.), he expects each
individual to take charge and direct his life to a higher plane. These ideals are
echoed in Great Expectations and Oliver Twist, tales of young orphan boys
thrown upon their own devices and the mercy or malignancy of others.
He is, nevertheless, vary generous to those who take the easier way, finding
reasons, for both Steerforth's degeneracy and even Uriah Heep's unctuous
evil, in the poor influences that molded their behavior.
I believe that Dickens is telling his story but that he is also offering it as a
guide to others.
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (74 of 86), Read 33 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Friday, March 02, 2001 01:25 PM
Trudy: Very good point. I agree that Dickens is communicating those virtues
you mention. It's just that they're hidden so darn well in such an effective
story that they don't stick out. More power to him.
Speaking of communicating virtues, I had an out-of-town drive yesterday and
my radio dial came across a Christian fundamentalist station that was
presenting a drama series for children.
They made NO attempt to hide the moral of the story. In fact, the announcer
began with a voice-over for any young louts who might miss the
sledge-hammer "point":
"This story is about... THE... MIRACLE... OF... A... CHANGED... LIFE!!!"
This was accompanied by (I kid you not) an old-fashioned pipe organ
crescendo and an echo chamber (!) for the punch-line. I almost lost my french
fries. The first 60 seconds of the actual "play" was so insulting and irritating I
had to switch stations.
I'm sure the producers are patting themselves on the back, but any
self-respecting kid would run from that crap to anything, even Eminem, and I
wouldn't blame 'em.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (75 of 86), Read 25 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, March 02, 2001 03:15 PM
I'm only a third of the way through, but what has struck me is how tolerant,
naive, and optimistic David is of all he meets. That says a lot for the power of
love in a difficult life. And yet, I have no doubt others would grow up cynical.
As I was reading the synopsis of A Walk on the Wild Side by Nelson Algren, I
was struck by this paragraph, "The book asks why lost people sometimes
develop into greater human beings than those who have never been lost in
their whole lives. Why men who have suffered at the hands of other men are
the natural believers in humanity, while those whose part has been simply to
acquire, to take all and give nothing, are the most contemptuous of
mankind."
He could be describing David and Steelforth.
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (76 of 86), Read 26 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, March 02, 2001 03:31 PM
Can you imagine how Dickens' original readers must have anticipated the
next installment of this book? It must have been the "Survivor" of its period,
with folks chatting about characters, what's happening next, and applying
best guesses to how characters are going to react.
Dick - I think you are the one that described DC as a "page turner," and
commented on its pre-Freudian psychological insights. Now there's a thought
- Freud was inspired by Dickens. Ha!
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (77 of 86), Read 30 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Friday, March 02, 2001 05:56 PM
Kay: Amen, as to how Dickens' contemporary readers must have anticipated
the next installment of DAVID COPPERFIELD.
If memory serves me, I've read that there were occasionally riots at
bookstores when the periodical carrying his latest chapter was being
delivered. The more rough-and-tumble readers rushing upon the delivery guy
before he even got inside the store, etc. I can sure see why.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (78 of 86), Read 29 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Friday, March 02, 2001 09:23 PM
Probably akin to what happens today with the release of the latest Brittany
Spears video. At least based on what seems to happen around here, with a
teen-age boy underfoot.
Dick In The 21st Century
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (79 of 86), Read 23 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Saturday, March 03, 2001 07:12 AM
I finished. Oh my. This book is on my all-time best ten list. Probably right at
the top. It's rare for a book to engage me to this extent; I felt I was in
another world. The scenes are so clear, the people so real (even though they
are quite stylized), that I would recognize them if I saw them today. And
emotionally I was as engaged as was possible. I never felt he overdid the
sentimentality, although I'm pretty tolerant of that kind of thing, and others
may disagree.
Later with specifics.
Sherry
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (80 of 86), Read 20 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Saturday, March 03, 2001 11:22 AM
Trudy-
I'm intrigued by your comment regarding Dickens' ability to find reasons for
Steerforth and Uriah being the way they are. He definitely provides the
background for why they turn out the way they do.
I think Dickens also provides for David's character as well. Though his early
life was far more cruel, he was saved from a life of dissipation and cynicism
because of the love and care he received from others.
I find it interesting that the most influential people in his male characters'
lives are women. Mrs. Heep is slimy and ambitious for her son. Mrs. Steerforth
can see nothing BUT her son. Both use their sons to live their lives for them.
Aunt Betsy and Peggotty are different in that they love David for himself. I
enjoy the way Aunt Betsy is able to step back from him and allow David his
own decisions. Peggotty, bless her, throws her heart into every hug she
gives him and loves unconditionally. Agnes also has the gift of stepping back
and seeing a person for himself.
These observations are trite, I know, but I have to wonder if Dickens
intentionally tried to demonstrate why some adults spend their lives lost and
why others continue to grow and learn. I don't think Dickens wrote with that
objective in mind, but it certainly provides fodder for 21st century parents.
It's interesting to consider how we read and interpret DC compared to his
original readers. I wonder if they spent much time analyzing characters, or if
their focus was more on plot.
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (81 of 86), Read 21 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Saturday, March 03, 2001 11:31 AM
I particularly enjoyed "My First Dissipation." Was it my imagination, or did the
writing actually mimic the longerthanusualdeepthoughtsandanticsofbeing
drunk? Ha!
Another favorite chapter was the dinner party, with Hamlet's aunt. How I
identified with DC's boredom while imprisoned in the power dinner shop talk.
The contrast of Traddles' sincere desire to remain unobtrusive and humble
with Uriah's struck me.
I confess to emitting an "Ugh!" at the thought of Uriah marrying Agnes. My
lips curled, and my body shuddered. What a writer!
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (82 of 86), Read 20 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Robert Armstrong (rla@nac.net)
Date:
Saturday, March 03, 2001 11:49 AM
Peter (my partner) tells me that when he was a boy his mother had the
frequent habit of spontaneously bursting out laughing while at home and
exclaiming: "Barkas is willing!"
Robt
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (83 of 86), Read 18 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Saturday, March 03, 2001 11:51 AM
Sorry for the 3 in a row here.
Question:
Barristers try cases in superior courts.
Solicitors try cases in lower courts.
Are Proctors like paralegals, then, responsible for some research and the
daily tasks of seeing to mundane details that keep a legal office rolling?
Also:
Obviously, Doctors aren't necessarily MD's. Are they the equivalent of PhD's?
And what's the deal with being located in Doctor's Commons? Simply a matter
of location? Burning questions, all.
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (84 of 86), Read 19 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Saturday, March 03, 2001 01:06 PM
Sherry: I've got several hundred more pages yet to go, but I agree with you
on this one. It's already joined my permanent Top 10 list. What a piece of
work.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (85 of 86), Read 21 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Saturday, March 03, 2001 01:12 PM
I read DC (and Oliver T.)aloud to my kids when they were about 6 and 10.
They loved it. It's just a great story.
Ruth
“Times are bad. Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is
writing a book." -Marcus Tullius Cicero
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (89 of 89), Read 6 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 04, 2001 10:30 AM
Because so much of Dickens' writing is in the formal/traditional style of
his time period, I'm caught off guard to come across occasional really
funky and dazzling things he does stylistically, without calling attention
to themselves or breaking the flow of the story.
Kay mentioned a chapter on David's getting drunk that's somewhat of a
stylistic experiment; I'm not there yet, but I'm blown away by Chapter
18, "A Retrospect," when Dickens condenses some six years of David's
life--his school years--into about six pages.
He transitions to this condensation with the line, "...and hold me
hovering above those days, in a half-sleeping and half-waking dream."
Then, WHAM. The flow of events strikes me like an impressionist
painting, fragmented and vivid, but the smoothness with which he
handles the transitions through time boggles my mind.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (86 of 101), Read 21 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Trudy Ward (biblolphelia1@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 04, 2001 06:11 PM
Kay,
I think very few 19th C readers enjoyed Dickens for anything other than his
great stories. And since psychology as we know it had not been "invented"
yet, that was not a consideration. Nevertheless I do think that Dickens
understood exactly what he was doing. "Whether I shall turn out to be the
hero of my own life...." I believe this opening sentence shows his intentions,
a hero is a leader, a guide, a role model.
While he meant for his stories to sell and entertain, he knew from the classics
that he loved that writing was capable of much more. At that time the idea of
instructing young minds was just coming into vogue. I am sure that he was
aware that more often than not it was done poorly, as Dale pointed out
about the story he heard on the radio. That Dickens could morally instruct
without getting caught in the act is attributable to his genius.
Trudy
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (91 of 101), Read 24 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 04, 2001 11:55 AM
I hadn't thought about that, Dale, but you're right. I was comfortable with
the transition because David had found a secure place in which to grow up.
After all the previous turmoil and cruelty, his adolescence was a haven, and
blended into a single sense of well being. As the reader, I was so relieved for
him, that the condensing of years into 6 pages didn't bother me a whit.
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (92 of 101), Read 29 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 04, 2001 12:42 PM
Kay: You've shed some light, for me, on why I think the fast-forwarded
"Retrospect" chapter about Davy's adolescence works so well. With all the
crap he took, growing up, who could begrudge him some halcyon years in
secondary school?
(Interesting inversion of the norm, though, isn't it? I think most of us felt
relatively sheltered and cared for until we reached adolescence, and then all
hell broke loose.)
For a dramatist, though, the "good years" are not nearly as interesting as
the nightmare ones, so he compresses them. The conventional way of doing
that is through synopsis and authorial voice-over: This happened, then that
happened, then...
But Dickens, in a way that I still can't quite puzzle out, writes as if it's a
single, extended scene. It's not until afterward, if then, that the reader
realizes this "unbroken" scene covered about six years. If you haven't
noticed {G}, I'm in flat-out awe of this guy's command of narrative technique.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (93 of 101), Read 28 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Sunday, March 04, 2001 12:47 PM
Dale, I loved that "Retrospect" chapter, too. Just the descriptions of his
childish loves alone are priceless. It's such a cinematic approach. If it were a
movie, the calendar pages would be flying by, but it works much better here,
I think. It is a flawless segue into another part of his life. But you feel as if
you know just what happened, even though it was tightly compressed.
Sherry
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (94 of 101), Read 25 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 04, 2001 01:06 PM
Sherry: Yes, the love scenes. His crushes on "older" women (meaning, in
their 20s) really struck a chord with me. Damn them, to go off dancing with
officers and marrying. Women really know how to hurt a guy. {G}
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (95 of 101), Read 28 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 04, 2001 01:21 PM
Dickens writes with an 'evenness' that is remarkable. Almost any author
seems to have fits and starts in the story -- where things happen too fast, or
not fast enough. But Dickens always seems, to me anyway, just right.
Dick In The 21st Century
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (96 of 101), Read 24 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Sunday, March 04, 2001 01:27 PM
What amazes me about this book, is that there was no revision, or none to
speak of. Just wham bam, off to press. My edition has a really good
introduction (it should only be read afterwards) by David Gates. In it, he says
in a much more vivid way, what I was talking about in one of my earlier
posts:
"If ever a writer puts words together to create in your mind something like
virtual reality--a fictive world you could swear you're inhabiting, teeming with
people you could swear you know--Dickens does it in David Copperfield."
Isn't that the truth!?
Sherry
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (97 of 101), Read 24 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 04, 2001 02:17 PM
Sherry & Dick: Amen, to both your notes. "A remarkable evenness" and a
feeling for the reader of "virtual reality."
I can't think of another author with a surer sense of pacing. He's also great
at walking the line between tragedy and comedy. Just when a situation is so
sad and oppressive that you think you're going to have to take a break from
the emotional tension, along comes a line like "Janet! The donkeys!" or
"Barkis is willing." There's that release of laughter, and it frees up your heart
to keep following the story and hurt some more.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (98 of 101), Read 12 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
S. Bohinka (bohinka@riconnect.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 04, 2001 08:37 PM
RE: Pacing
Eddie and I were discussing this last night and our conclusion was that
because it was written as a serial, he had to have that pacing--keeping up
interest and important catchy things. He didn't have the luxury of going off on
some tangent for 200 pages like some authors do with long books like this,
because for all practical purposes it was structured by what he had to
produce for the serial.
The serial also takes a different kind of thinking and discipline. Sounds like he
really had a knack for it. :)
Bo
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (99 of 101), Read 12 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 04, 2001 08:45 PM
I know psychology wasn't in use yet, but nevertheless, Dickens nailed the
basics. That's one reason why he's so relevant today. As someone has
already noted, I've met all his characters at one time or another in modern
garb.
His life lessons are obvious, but he writes them so well that I don't feel
preached to at all.
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (100 of 101), Read 6 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Monday, March 05, 2001 07:13 AM
David Gates, in his Introduction, talks about Dickens and women:
"In Dickens's presentation of women, especially, he clearly felt constrained
both as a Victorian Englishman in general and as Charles Dickens in
particular. Nowadays you need either great sophistication or none at all to
endure his heroines as they exhibit their virtue in unearthly patience and
floribundant oration (Agnes, Annie Strong), or their sexuality in icky
coquettishness (Dora, David's mother). I'm willing to think they played better
back then than they do now, but if Shakespeare--and, earlier in Dickens's
own century, Jane Austen--could write women who were smart, good, and
sexy, what was up with the Inimitable? He writes best about damaged, dark,
and dangerous women..."
What do you all think about that, and how about that line "Nowadays you
need either great sophistication or none at all to endure his heroines"?
Sherry
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (101 of 101), Read 6 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, March 05, 2001 08:06 AM
Last night I read the "My First Dissipation" chapter. What a gem. What a
hoot. He so well recreates the horror of over-imbibing that I woke up this
morning with a headache in sympathy.
Sherry: I think Gates doth protest too much about Dickens' difficulties for the
"modern" reader. I've never claimed sophistication, but when I'm reading
Victorian fiction at least I know I'm reading Victorian fiction and adjust my
expectations accordingly. If I wanted to read about modern women, I'd have
picked up a Nora Roberts. {G}
(By the way, this isn't the same David Gates who used to be lead singer for
the group Bread, is it?)
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (104 of 110), Read 34
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Monday, March 05, 2001 10:27 AM
All I know is that he is the David Gates who wrote Preston Falls.
Sherry
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (105 of 110), Read 35
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, March 05, 2001 10:51 AM
Sherry-
I thought one of the most believable female characters so far (on p.
500) was Miss Mowcher. The contrast between her interaction with
Steerforth and then David shows depth of character and gives insight
into why she behaves as she does. We don't get that from the other
females. They are beautifully and vividly described, but one dimensional,
all the same. Miss Mowcher has an inner life.
Otherwise, Dickens seems to write women as one of a category - saints
(Agnes, Emily), idiots (his mother, Dora), meaner than hell/manipulative
(Miss Mudstone, Mrs. Steerforth, Miss Dartle)or comic (Peggotty, Aunt
Betsy, Mrs. Gummidge, Mrs. Crupp).
However, that doesn't bother me in this novel, as they are all so
lovingly drawn, and are bursting with truisms. There's no doubt as to
whom we are to hate and whom we are to love. Like Dale, I accept that
I'm reading a Victorian novel, and let that pass.
It's interesting to consider how Dickens might have written DC for
today's audience and publishers. Would he have been forced to
develop more internal insight or would he have let his characters stand
in favor of a great plot? Something makes me think I would enjoy a
modern Dickens, but an extended explanation of motivations would
change the tenor of the plot. I'll stay with the original.
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (106 of 110), Read 28
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ee Lin Kuan (eelin@althor.fsnet.co.uk)
Date:
Monday, March 05, 2001 05:24 PM
Kay, I have to admit that David's naivete annoyed me initially. Of
course, I understood that he was a child, but ... I did get just a little
impatient with him. I really learned to like David when he became an
adult. Maybe it's because he still kept his good nature, yet didn't let
others step all over him. And I'm very glad he saw through Uriah from
the beginning.
It took me some time to warm to this book. I'd initially thought that
Dickens was rather long-winded, but did realize that perhaps all
19th-century books were written in that style. The characters grew on
me, and by the end of the book I enjoyed it very much, especially
because everyone got his just desserts.
The most emotional part for me was the scene between Dr Strong and
his wife, when she finally explains the reason she has felt obliged to
him. To be honest, I had also suspected that she was secretly in love
with her cousin. So this revelation was a wonderful and emotional
surprise.
Ee Lin
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (107 of 110), Read 29
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Monday, March 05, 2001 05:47 PM
This was a surprise to me, too, Ee Lin. Dickens set us up to think she
had a thing going with her cousin. Remember those ribbons?
I bet he may have changed his mind how this was going to end up. I
really liked the epiphany David experienced about his "undisciplined
heart" during this scene.
Sherry
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (108 of 110), Read 27
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Robert Armstrong (rla@nac.net)
Date:
Monday, March 05, 2001 09:28 PM
Oh, I'm so slow. I just said goodbye to the Murdstones. Don't continue
to read my note if you haven't yet shaken the Murdstones. How
satisfying to get rid of them. Isn't Aunt Betsey the best? Aren't the
Murdstones deliciously loathsome? Sneering, veneered vampires. Self
venerating respectability at its most hollow. The quintessence of
cruelty. A dried up black heart in a box. I'm with you, Davy, all the way.
Robt
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (109 of 110), Read 20
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, March 05, 2001 10:43 PM
I'm about 100 pages from the end and don't want to be finished. It's
been ages since I've said that about a book. I'm hoping that I can find a
good audiobook production of it and read it again.
Yes, I was delighted that Dickens escaped the Murdstones and was
taken in by Aunt Betsy, Robt. I'm trying to remember which book I read
recently that made slightly disparaging remarks about Dickens' happy
endings. Cider House Rules uses David Copperfield a lot, but I can't
remember if that was it. Anyway, I love Dickens happy endings. It's
oddly comforting to know that it will all work out.
I was glad you noted the quality of the humor, Dick. I commented to my
husband that Dickens can almost sound like a modern stand-up comic
at some points, especially his political jabs.
Did anyone know an answer to Kay's question about Proctors? I'm
having a hard time figuring out their role as compared to our court
system too.
Barb
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (87 of 110), Read 13
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ernest Belden (drernest@pacbell.net)
Date:
Monday, March 05, 2001 11:28 PM
I just now finished reading all the comments made so far and now I
wonder if there is anything left for me to say? I do agree with most all
you people have said (written). This book is indeed a page turner and
when I first looked at its length I figured, well I will be reading until
somewhere in 02, but it did not turn out that way. This will not be the
case as I have only a bit more than 200 pages to go and it also keeps
me from peeking at other books that I have laying around. I must have
mentioned a hundred times my bad habit of looking at more than one
book at a time plus 6 to 8 magazines and let's not forget the S.F.
Chronicle. Well I am retired, the weather is horrible outside and what
else is there to do? I don't watch soaps on TV and the amount of
running around at this time of the year is limited. My boat may also be
living in a dream world as it is too stormy to take her out and the
harbor needs dredging.
Well, what did I find in this book? Closeness, caring and love impresses
me more than the viciousness of some of the characters. This brings me
to a strange memory experience. I have no memory of having ever read
this book before but still remember Dickens Xmas stories as one of the
first things I ever read in my childhood. Now strangely enough I do
remember the names and personalities of some, but not all of DC's
characters. I vividly remember the Micawbers and Uriah Heep, etc.
Perhaps I read parts of DC while in school or someone in the family
read it to me.
Well, have to agree with one more thing you people have been saying.
Namely this book will remain one of the most previous books in my life.
Now I have a question that puzzles the heck out of me. Some of the
writing seems almost contemporary and the same is true of some of the
expressions used. Was this book revised into modern English?
David loves the girls and how can one hold that against him? David had
a horrible childhood with his step father and step aunt. Yet he turned
out to be all right, a genuinely good and decent person. Well he did find
his wonderful aunt who rejected him at birth because he did not turn
out to be a girl. But his aunt had excellent sense and understood
David's fine qualities as did the maid.
Well reading this book was a treat I shall never forget.
Ernie
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (88 of 110), Read 11
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, March 06, 2001 05:34 AM
Ernie-
Like you, I know I've read Uriah Heep and Dora before, but had lost the
story line over the years. I remember them, simply because of my
visceral reaction to them. Uriah is the inspiration for "making your skin
crawl," and Dora inspires an intense desire to slap someone. Mr. and
Miss Murdstone bring out my stubborn, rebellious side, and I can't wait
for them to get theirs. :-)
Ee Lin -
I warmed to David right off. He did the best he could to survive a dismal
situation, and my heart ached right along with his.
What was it about him that bothered you?
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (110 of 110), Read 9
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Tuesday, March 06, 2001 06:26 AM
This is a reply to Ernie's question about the modern sounding English. I
don't think a word has been touched since Dickens sent in the
manuscript to his publisher. I think the reason he is still so popular is
his uncanny ability to span the ages. Towards the end of the book
there's a paragraph about writing simply that I want to find. The book is
upstairs right now. I'll look for it later today.
Sherry
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (89 of 122), Read 20 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ee Lin Kuan (eelin@althor.fsnet.co.uk)
Date:
Tuesday, March 06, 2001 04:43 PM
Kay, I guess I was just a little impatient that he kept being cheated by
the
waiter and by Steerforth. It's not his fault, I know that, he was so
young.
I just wish he wised up a little bit. But then, maybe, he would have
become
too cynical.
Sherry, yes, I liked the epiphany, too, but I'd always known that Agnes
was
more a match for him than Dora. Do you think that it was too convenient
that
Dora died so young?
Ee Lin
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (90 of 122), Read 22 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Tuesday, March 06, 2001 05:01 PM
I do think it was a bit convenient, and from the little I've read, that is
one of the complaints critics have. But I'm very willing to forgive Dickens.
I wonder what she died of.
Sherry
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (91 of 122), Read 19 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
David Moody (davidmoody@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, March 06, 2001 05:43 PM
Sherry:
I think she died of plot complications. But that type seems fated to fade
early; didn't she remind you of Copperfield's mother?
David
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (92 of 122), Read 19 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Tuesday, March 06, 2001 06:35 PM
She was the same type as his mother, pretty, helpless, malleable (well,
maybe Dora wasn't nearly as malleable as David would have liked). She
seemed so absolutely stubborn in her helplessness.
Sherry
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (93 of 122), Read 18 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, March 06, 2001 06:49 PM
Absolutely, David. "Plot complications," indeed. Good one!
Let's not forget our dear, dear yipper friend, Jip. DC's comment that he
wished "...that Jip had never been encouraged to walk about the
tablecloth during dinner" has to be THE understatement of the whole
book. Jip spends his time "tumbling over its own growls." He has only
one trick - to lie down on the table "like a lion, ... though I cannot say
the likeness was striking." This is a so poorly behaved dog that he has
to be trussed in the plate warmer to keep him quiet. This is a dog with a
Napoleon complex that HAS to go.
David expresses his dislike without ever actually saying so. Like the
butcher's dog Jip encounters, I wanted to "have taken him like a pill"
and been done with the annoying critter. Actually, I'm not sure who
annoyed me more - Dora or Jip.
I felt for David when he was trying to cope with Dora's unwillingness to
deal with the hired help. Paragon was really a case. "We should have
been at her mercy, if she had had any." HA!
How on earth could any thinking man be attracted to a woman who
feels that "reasoning is worse than scolding?" I guess David was trying
to re-create his mother, but even she wasn't as much of a boob as
Dora. His frustration reaches a peak when he's pacing, "...full of love for
my pretty wife, and distracted by self-accusatory inclinations to knock
my head against the door." Double "HA!"
Unlike Aunt Betsy, who looks at "the qualities she has, and not by the
qualities she may not have," I cannot get past my desire to slap some
sense into Little Blossom's ringlet tossed empty head. Did Dickens want
us to feel this way, or was he trying to get us to see her good qualities,
and like her for what she was? She's the kind of woman that makes me
want to run screaming from the room.
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (94 of 122), Read 17 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, March 06, 2001 07:09 PM
Me too, Kay, me too. Every time I've read DC I've wanted to knock the
D&D heads together. Hers for being such a ninny. His for putting up with
it.
Ruth
“Times are bad.Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is
writing a book." - Marcus Tullius Cicero
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (95 of 122), Read 18 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, March 06, 2001 07:18 PM
Thanks, Ruth. I knew I could count on you. We'll be charter members of
the NTFN (No Tolerance For Ninnies) activist group. Who else wants to
join?
David is a youthful, temporary idiot in love, but he's not a ninny. I give
him credit for realizing his mistake, and trying to make the best of it.
WHY are intelligent men pulled into such relationships? Oh yeah - To Sex
and Protect.
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (96 of 122), Read 16 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ernest Belden (drernest@pacbell.net)
Date:
Tuesday, March 06, 2001 11:42 PM
Kay,
David was neither experienced nor sophisticated when it came to
women and did not have sense enough to project himself into a long
term relationship with an empty headed female. Dora being opposed to
reason, well what's wrong with that - if you don't have any brains to
speak of and just can't reason on your own. Frankly I have seen people,
both male and females like that.
Other's may call David self-destructive rather than naive, but I just don't
know. He shows good sense much of the time. He is a type I would
really enjoy meeting and that may turn into a long term friendship.
Ernie
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (97 of 122), Read 17 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ernest Belden (drernest@pacbell.net)
Date:
Tuesday, March 06, 2001 11:47 PM
Sherry,
If we were to compare George Eliot's style of wring with Charles Dickens
who would come out on top? I recall having some difficulties with the
former and believe her use of language does not come close to that of
CD.
Ernie
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (98 of 122), Read 15 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, March 07, 2001 07:53 AM
Ernie-
I agree. David is a top notch fellow, and I'd like to know him.
I know he was young, and if I were his Aunt Betsy, I'd be pacing the
floor endlessly as well. "Can't he see this is the girlfriend from hell?!"
But then, all I'd hear would be, "You just don't understand our kind of
love, you Old Fogey, you." :-)
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (121 of 122), Read 18
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ernest Belden (drernest@pacbell.net)
Date:
Tuesday, March 06, 2001 11:22 PM
Sherry,
Thank you for your explanation and going through all the trouble of
looking for a quote by Dickens.
Take care,
Ernie
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (122 of 122), Read 17
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Wednesday, March 07, 2001 07:39 AM
It wasn't much trouble, Ernie. I remember that I had marked it. It's on
p.700 of the Modern Library edition. It starts about being about Mr.
Micawber's wordiness:
Again, Mr. Micawber had a relish in this formal piling up of words, which,
however ludicrously displayed in his case, was, I must say, not at all
peculiar to him. I have observed it, in the course of my life, in numbers of
men. It seems to me to be a general rule. In the taking of legal oaths, for
instance, deponents seem to enjoy themselves mightily when they come to
several good words in succession, for the expression of one idea; as, that
they utterly detest, abominate, and abjure, or so forth; and the old
anathemas were made relishing on the same principle. We talk about the
tyranny of words, but we like to tyrannise over them too; we are fond of
having a large superfluous establishment of words to wait upon us on great
occasions; we think it looks important, and sounds well. As we are not
particular about the meaning of our liveries on state occasions, if they be
but fine and numerous enough, so, the meaning or necessity of our words
is a secondary consideration, if there be but a great parade of them. And as
individuals get into trouble by making too great a show of liveries, or as
slaves when they are too numerous rise against their masters, so I think
could mention a nation that has got into many great difficulties, and will get
into many greater, from maintaining too large a retinue of words.
Sherry
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (99 of 140), Read 17 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ee Lin Kuan (eelin@althor.fsnet.co.uk)
Date:
Thursday, March 08, 2001 12:51 PM
Kay and Ruth, I guess, Dora was your favourite character, then? :-)
A comment about Dora. Despite her seeming childishness, she could be quite
perceptive. The reason I say this is because she knew that she was very
child-like and she pointed this out to David to let him know that she would
never be able to change despite anything anyone might try. She also
foresaw
that if she had lived to an old age, eventually David might have become
dissatisfied with the marriage. Finally, she, like Aunt Betsey, also knew
that Agnes was a good match for David.
Aren't most of the characters in this story either good or bad, even the
male characters? Uriah, Mr Limiter and the Murdstones were definitely "bad"
characters from the get-go, and all the others were good at heart despite
their eccentricities. Steerforth is the only one who is just a bit more
ambiguous than the rest. Maybe it's because all the characters are viewed
through David's eyes, and he only sees them as good or bad. The only
ambivalence is regarding Steerforth, and David himself worshipped him until
the tragedy with Emily.
Ee Lin
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (100 of 140), Read 20 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Thursday, March 08, 2001 01:02 PM
When I was in college, Steerforth was alive and well on fraternity row.
Ruth
“Times are bad.Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a
book." - Marcus Tullius Cicero
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (101 of 140), Read 19 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, March 08, 2001 01:31 PM
Ruth: Steerforth as frat boy? Wow! I think you knocked that one out of the
park, for sure. What a prototype he is.
Brings back very unpleasant memories of my college years, as I was a
member of the out-crowd from day one.
Question: do you think Davy's deprived upbringing made him particularly
vulnerable to a Steerforth, or did the guy just have that effect on people in
general?
Despite Steerforth's occasional cryptic self-maligning to Davy (I'm still only
halfway through the book), he always seemed to be at the center of a
worshipful crowd.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (102 of 140), Read 18 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@starband.net)
Date:
Thursday, March 08, 2001 01:32 PM
I think Dickens' portrayal of Steerforth was one of the best parts of the book.
WE knew from the getgo that he was trouble, but David, being so naive and
worshipful just couldn't see it.
Sherry
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (127 of 140), Read 21 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Thursday, March 08, 2001 01:36 PM
Just swinging the queue over to the left.
The Steerforths of the world have great charm. Until you scratch the veneer.
Davy just wasn't very perceptive about people, was he?
Ruth, another member of the out crowd
“Times are bad.Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a
book." - Marcus Tullius Cicero
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (128 of 140), Read 20 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@starband.net)
Date:
Thursday, March 08, 2001 01:37 PM
Last time we swung it to the left, it didn't stay there very long.
Sherry
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (129 of 140), Read 20 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Thursday, March 08, 2001 01:40 PM
The discussion's too good, and the heading is too long.
Ruth
“Times are bad.Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a
book." - Marcus Tullius Cicero
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (130 of 140), Read 19 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, March 08, 2001 01:42 PM
"You swing it to the left,
it swings back to the right..."
(Insert hokey-pokey music)
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
David Copperfield (131 of 140), Read 20 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Thursday, March 08, 2001 01:44 PM
How about shortening the title? That should slow down the dance.
Ruth
“Times are bad.Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a
book." - Marcus Tullius Cicero
Topic:
David Copperfield (132 of 140), Read 21 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Pres Lancaster (plancast@neteze.com)
Date:
Thursday, March 08, 2001 07:34 PM
Ruth,
It doesn't matter how long the title is. The heading for each message is just
one letter to the right of the one before. It's the number of messages until
someone (you, kind lady) gives it a new start.
FRUMIOUS BANDERSNATCH, FRIEND OF OGDRED WEARY
Topic:
David Copperfield (133 of 140), Read 17 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@qwest.net)
Date:
Thursday, March 08, 2001 09:51 PM
Thank you, Sherry, for you extended reference to one of my favorite fictional
characters, Mr. Macawber.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six,
result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty
pounds ought and six, result misery.
I should have this very famous quotation inscribed as a motto on my
stationery. I also love what immediately follows, although it is not well known
at all.
The blossom is blighted, the leaf is withered, the god of day goes down upon the
dreary scene, and - and in short you are for ever floored. As I am!
That "in short" business is of course Macawber's tag. Every character here
has a tag.
I do have a suspicion, however, that if more time had been devoted to Mr.
Dick so that I could have become as well acquainted with him, Mr. Dick would
have supplanted Mr. Macawber in my affections.
Steve
Topic:
David Copperfield (134 of 140), Read 17 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, March 08, 2001 10:33 PM
I liked Mr. Dick too, Steve. When a character like that is well done, I simply
can't resist. It's probably why I became a special ed teacher, just like to see
the world through that different lens.
I must tell you that one of my favorite characters was Aunt Betsy. That
probably doesn't surprise anyone who knows me. I loved her ability to admit
her mistakes and her little mutterings. I never quite understood where the
donkey fetish came from though.
Barb
Topic:
David Copperfield (135 of 140), Read 17 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Thursday, March 08, 2001 11:25 PM
I think Mr. Dick is my favorite character.
Dick In The 21st Century
Topic:
David Copperfield (136 of 140), Read 17 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Thursday, March 08, 2001 11:35 PM
Aw, gee.
Ruth
“Times are bad.Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a
book." - Marcus Tullius Cicero
Topic:
David Copperfield (137 of 140), Read 13 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@qwest.net)
Date:
Friday, March 09, 2001 07:58 AM
Janet, go upstairs, give my compliments to Mr. Dick, and say I wish to speak to
him.
I like that a lot. Something good always follows.
Mr. Dick's tag is that habit of rattling the money in his pocket.
One of the heartwarming aspects of the story is Mr. Dick's gradual success in
being able to keep the troubles that were in Charles I's head out of his own.
. .not a complete success, but an improvement.
Steve
Topic:
David Copperfield (138 of 140), Read 11 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@starband.net)
Date:
Friday, March 09, 2001 09:06 AM
I really like that scene where he earned some money from his ability to copy,
and turned over the money to Aunt Betsy (the best woman in the world).
Sherry
Topic:
David Copperfield (139 of 140), Read 8 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@qwest.net)
Date:
Friday, March 09, 2001 09:49 AM
He stacked up the coins and arranged them in a little heart shape for her or
something like that, as I recall.
Steve
Topic:
David Copperfield (140 of 140), Read 7 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, March 09, 2001 10:16 AM
Aunt Betsy is the kind of person I'd like to be. She has learned to step back
and let life happen, even when she's worried sick. She knew David and Dora
were mis matched, but she was wise to make the best of a bad situation. Her
ability to look for the qualities a person had, instead of what he hadn't, is
what brought her such a rich home life. Aunt Betsy Trotwood is one class act,
and epitomizes the ability to love without judgement.
Topic:
David Copperfield (140 of 166), Read 41 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@qwest.net)
Date:
Friday, March 09, 2001 11:57 AM
Really, Kay? This is the way you see Aunt Betsy? Non-judgmental?
Steve
Topic:
David Copperfield (141 of 166), Read 41 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, March 09, 2001 01:02 PM
LOL. Yes, Steve - non-judgmental, at least by the end of the book. Aunt
Betsy certainly was opinionated at David's birth. However, over the
years, she learned that she couldn't control what others did. She
learned to stay out of other people's affairs, and to make the best of a
bad situation.
A prime example is when David courted Dora. Aunt Betsy spent so many
hours pacing, but she never said, "David - that girl is an idiot. Don't
marry her." Instead, she looked for Dora's good points and responded
to those.
Aunt Betsy voices the changes she has made over the years in how she
treats others. "Our Housekeeping" chapter:
"I look back on my life, child,' said my aunt, 'and I think of some who are
in their graves, with whom, I might have been on kinder terms. If I
judged harshly of other people's mistakes in marriage, it may have
been because I had bitter reason to judge harshly of my own. Let that
pass. I have been a grumpy, frumpy, wayward sort of a woman, a good
many years. I am, still, and I always shall be. But you and I have done
one another some good, Trot - at all events, you have done me good,
my dear, and division must not come between us, at this time of day."
Of course, she is put out with Uriah, but then, who isn't?
Being strong minded is different from being judgmental, and Aunt Betsy
has allowed her better side to take precedence by the end of the novel.
She's my favorite character.
I would classify the Murdstones as judgmental.
Topic:
David Copperfield (142 of 166), Read 41 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, March 09, 2001 01:16 PM
I just finished this gem, and feel as if I'm a member of David's extended
family. What lucky creatures they are, to have formed such a tight,
secure ring of love and caring. Yet they remain open to newcomers, like
me. :-)
Did anyone else think that Mrs. Gummidge was in love with Mr.
Peggotty? I was surprised Dickens didn't throw that marriage into his
happily ever after conclusion.
Topic:
David Copperfield (143 of 166), Read 45 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Friday, March 09, 2001 01:31 PM
To address an earlier question Sherry asked in regard to Dora's
death..Dora's health began to fail shortly after a stillbirth or miscarriage.
In the chapter titled 'DOMESTIC' (XLVIII), David says:
"I had hoped that lighter hands than mine would help to mold her
character, and that a baby-smile upon her breast might change my
child-wife to a woman. It was not to be. The spirit fluttered for a
moment on the threshold of its little prison, and unconscious of
captivity, took wing."
The chapter notes in the back of the book state:
'Dickens, with characteristically Victorian reticence, is describing a
stillbirth or a miscarriage.'
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield (144 of 166), Read 53 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Friday, March 09, 2001 01:51 PM
Mr.Dick was almost complex in his simplicity (talk about an oxymoron). I
loved how he would write and write and write, and then go and make
kites from the papers he wrote.
Aunt Betsey's bonnet interested me. It was always on her head, but
either untied or lopsided, slightly askew over one eye..just a touch
away from being totally 'proper' ( a bit of Victorian female rebellion
perhaps?)...sort of like Aunt Betsey herself.
I really liked the way Dickens used little material things, such as the kite
and the bonnet, to give the readers an almost subconscious, subtle
insight into his characters.
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield (145 of 166), Read 42 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Friday, March 09, 2001 02:52 PM
"I have been a grumpy, frumpy, wayward sort of a woman,"
I can relate to that.
Ruth
“Times are bad.Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is
writing a book." - Marcus Tullius Cicero
Topic:
David Copperfield (146 of 166), Read 42 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Friday, March 09, 2001 03:04 PM
Ruth -- I'm not even reading David Copperfield again only browsing the
comments and smiling a lot as I hear your various voices speaking of
one of my favorite reads -- but I can tell you that I too related to that!!!
Dottie -- who has always been a bit grumpy, frumpy, and wayward --
but kept it secret for years and years!
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (102 of 131) (147 of 166),
Read 34 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ee Lin Kuan (eelin@althor.fsnet.co.uk)
Date:
Friday, March 09, 2001 03:45 PM
Sherry, when David set down to write his "autobiography", he already
knew
that Steerforth was trouble beneath all the charm. And, although he
presented Steerforth as charming, there was a sense that he wasn't as
good
as cracked up to be, because David was writing with hindsight. If the
book
had been written as a diary, then maybe we wouldn't have been able
to see
through Steerforth either. Anyway, at any rate, I was suspicious about
Steerforth from the beginning, especially when he used up all of David's
money for luxuries upon meeting him for the first time!
Ee Lin
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (102 of 131) (148 of 166),
Read 34 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ee Lin Kuan (eelin@althor.fsnet.co.uk)
Date:
Friday, March 09, 2001 04:30 PM
Beej, thanks for that explanation on the stillbirth/miscarriage. I
wondered about it and finally concluded that he was talking about Dora
dying and that the little spirit was Dora. A miscarriage makes more
sense and explains why Dora's health started to deteriorate.
Ee Lin
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (102 of 131) (149 of 166),
Read 33 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Friday, March 09, 2001 05:22 PM
Ee Lin: Gosh, I had totally forgotten about Steerforth blowing Davy's
money on food the first time they met. That was foreshadowing, for
sure.
I think I overlooked it because Davy was being taken advantage of by
so many people in so many settings, at that point, Steerforth didn't
particularly stick out. {G}
What a master Dickens is at (among so many other things) indirection,
giving us information that doesn't fully register at the time but is far
more important in retrospect...just like real life!
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (102 of 131) (150 of 166),
Read 40 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Friday, March 09, 2001 06:14 PM
Again -- I haven't reread this but -- Dale, perhaps Dickens was so good
at this indirection because he practiced some such in his own life --
wasn't his a rather hand to mouth life and scrambling to make money to
keep the family going and maybe even some other households -- hints
of mistresses? I am not a Dickens scholar though so may be entirely
wrong on this and have info confused from elsewhere.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
March Discussion: David Copperfield by Dickens (102 of 131) (151 of 166),
Read 38 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Friday, March 09, 2001 11:28 PM
I think one of the more heart rendering characters was Mr. Peggotty.
Even though he was not of a high social standing, he was such a good
and kind and loving man. His long search for Emily and his unwavering
love for her touched my heart. And the idea of living in a boat
transformed into a house was very appealing, I thought.
But, did anyone else get the sense that Dickens didn't develop this
character as much as he could have? There was just something missing
that I can't put my finger on. Maybe he was just too good.
It seems Dickens had more fun writing about the nasty folks and those
with the little, endearing peccadillos. Perhaps Mr. Peggotty was just too
perfect.
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (152 of 166), Read 36 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@starband.net)
Date:
Saturday, March 10, 2001 07:00 AM
I know what you mean, Beej. It might be harder to write about good,
because there seem to be fewer ways to be good than to be bad. I
think the reason so many people love Aunt Betsy is because she
changed. She started out being of dubious character--didn't get her
namesake, so she abandoned Davy's mother and Davy. But then when
confronted with the Davy-at-the-door, she made room for him in her
heart. One of my favorite parts of the book, was when she asked Mr.
Dick what to do with him, and Mr. Dick said "Give him a bath" or "Buy
him a set of clothes." I knew he would be all right after that.
Sherry
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (153 of 166), Read 34 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Saturday, March 10, 2001 07:50 AM
My modern mind was confused when I read that Emily was clinging to
Mr. Peggotty. I thought she didn't want to marry Ham, yet wanted to
remain in Mr. Peggotty's home. I've seen too many soap operas, I
guess.
So no one else here thought Mrs. Gummidge was in love with Mr.
Peggotty?!
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (154 of 166), Read 38 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Saturday, March 10, 2001 07:56 AM
I think she was in love with Mr. Peggotty, too, Kay.
Did you get a sense that his feelings for Emily were not entirely
paternal?
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (155 of 166), Read 37 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Saturday, March 10, 2001 08:06 AM
I did, Beej, I did. But I figured I was reading it with a 21st century mind
besieged by all sorts of warped perspectives. In fact, I thought that
Emily was perhaps more interested in Mr. Peggotty than Ham.
That wasn't Dickens' intention, though. Surely not.
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (156 of 166), Read 38 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Saturday, March 10, 2001 08:07 AM
What about Martha..she was so incidental that it was as if Dickens only
created her in order to use this very minor character to tie loose ends
together.
Here is this prostitute who appears briefly, yet is used in such an
important way when it comes to finding Emily.
(Wasn't it Henry James who also gave incidental characters important
'effects' toward the end of his novels? and yet, I read James was not
really a great fan of Dickens, and was actually quite critical of him.)
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (157 of 166), Read 36 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Saturday, March 10, 2001 08:13 AM
Kay, I was surprised when Emily became engaged to Ham. She had so
much fire to her and Ham, well..Ham was dull.
I can understand why she ran off with Steerforth.
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (158 of 166), Read 34 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Saturday, March 10, 2001 08:20 AM
Beej-
Oh, please, don't get me started on James being critical of Dickens.
Perhaps he was simply jealous of the exquisitely simple writing Dickens
used to draw vivid characters that find a place in your soul. Perhaps he
simply wasn't up to the task of analyzing the human heart as well as
Dickens. Oh, CR could have a great debate on this one. :-)
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (159 of 166), Read 37 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Saturday, March 10, 2001 08:30 AM
Kay, James was critical of most writers, wasn't he? It must have rankled
his bones when Tolstoy gave credit to Dickens for being the most
influential writer of that century. ( I really think James saw his own
writing as a cross between John Milton's and St. Matthew's.)
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (160 of 166), Read 32 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Saturday, March 10, 2001 09:16 AM
It seems the three most interesting female characters, at least to me,
were the ones who didn't need a man to support their Victorian
'fluff'n-nutter'...Aunt Betsey, Miss Mowcher and Martha.
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (161 of 166), Read 18 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@qwest.net)
Date:
Saturday, March 10, 2001 01:12 PM
I see better now what you are saying about Aunt Betsy, Kay, and agree
that there was development in her character.
Steerforth is a classic example of the appeal of the bad boy. There is a
downside to those thrifty, loyal, steadfast, hard-working, serious men.
They tend to be. . .well. . .boring. Apparently, 'twas so even in Victorian
times.
This is why it would seem to me that everything would work so much
better if women routinely kept two men. Either no men at all or two
men, but not the half measure.
Steve
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (162 of 166), Read 13 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@starband.net)
Date:
Saturday, March 10, 2001 02:16 PM
What an intriguing idea. And how generous on the (two) men's part.
Sherry
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (163 of 166), Read 21 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Saturday, March 10, 2001 02:24 PM
Two men? TWO MEN????
You have to be kidding. I have enough dirty underwear to wash as it
is..plus you guys are sooo messy.
(But I sure do love those bad boys...)
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (164 of 166), Read 10 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Saturday, March 10, 2001 03:28 PM
I gave up prolonging my reading of David Copperfield today and finally
finished it. I usually hurry to the end of these long books so I can get
on to the next one, but I truly didn't want to leave this world. I love
modern writing, open endings, etc., but Dickens' world, especially this
one, is a very comfortable, endlessly satisfying one. Do those of you
who read Cider House Rules remember how David Copperfield was read
each night to the orphans? It was the only book that the boy orphans
heard. What a perfect thread for John Irving to weave throughout a
book set in an orphanage. It makes me appreciate him more.
Also, my brother sent me an excerpt some time ago from a biography
that Jane Smiley is writing on Charles Dickens. Now, I'm even more
interested in reading it.
Did you love that Miss Mowcher caught Mr. Littimer? And, how she did
it? I didn't, however, quite understand what her motivation would have
been to do it. I did understand that her poses with Steerforth were part
of her act to make it through the world, that she was no fan of his.
However, I didn't understand why she would have felt so strongly
about Mr. Littimer.
I have a forward in my Oxford Illustrated edition written by R.H. Malden.
Have any of you heard of him? It reads like it was written in the 1940's
though I could be wrong. In any case, he makes some interesting
comments about the relationship between David and Steerforth that
bear copying here:
It may be urged that Copperfield ought to have seen through Steerforth,
and to have recognized him as the vain, selfish egoist which he was. But
the fact that he did not is I think a tribute to Dickens insight into character:
at any rate into male character. Admiration born at school for an older boy,
who seems then to be more than everything which we ourselves could
ever hope to become, is extraordinarily powerful and persistent. It may
make it almost impossible for a man to recognize that his early idol has feet
of clay, and perhaps not much more than sounding brass higher up.
This explanation makes a lot of sense to me. And, I can particularly see
it fitting with boys in the English educational system of the time. Also,
I'm not always sharp at picking up foreshadowing but I did catch
Steerforth's taking advantage of David with the buying of the meal at
school...and braced myself for further abuse. Also, remember how
horrendous he was to Mr. Mell? And, I didn't realize that the Dr. Mell in
Australia was the same as the schoolmaster until I went back to look
for his name to write this observation. I'm glad that Dickens tied that
little knot. Nice to know that a poor, good-hearted teacher turned out
okay in the end.
Thanks for the information about Dora's miscarriage, Beej. That was all
a mystery to me.
Barb...thinking that I can never say that something is a mystery without
thinking of the Geoffrey Rush character in Shakespeare in Love
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (165 of 166), Read 10 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@qwest.net)
Date:
Saturday, March 10, 2001 03:38 PM
I found it interesting how many of the secondary characters went off to
a new life in Australia. I thought we were supposed to be the ones who
supply the venue for that.
Steve
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (166 of 166), Read 8 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Saturday, March 10, 2001 04:28 PM
Barb, Didn't Miss Mowcher feel responsible for Steerforth accomplishing
his scheme to whisk Emily away? And Mr. Littimer was his accomplice in
this. I think this is why she was so bent on catching Mr. Littimer.
(Steerforth was already taken care of..he was dead.)
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (167 of 194), Read 20 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Saturday, March 10, 2001 07:11 PM
Oh Steve -- come on the British distributed the people they didn't want
to both the Americas and to Australia didn't they? And then those who
made it go said to others -- this is grand and a lot of others left for both
places quite willingly.
Dottie -- thinking the state of Georgia and Australia had similar
beginning from certain Britishers
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (168 of 194), Read 22 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Saturday, March 10, 2001 07:49 PM
I liked the fact that the Micawbers got a new start. I know Mr. M.'s turn
around came from his careful monitoring of Heep's affairs. However,
that kind of smarts coming from him didn't quite fit for me. Was anyone
else bothered by that?
It did fit his kind personality, though. I thought it interesting he never
asked to borrow money from David, so I guess he did have some
scruples to work from.
I just hadn't seen the work ethic or intelligence up to that point.
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (169 of 194), Read 26 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Saturday, March 10, 2001 10:29 PM
Right, Beej! Thanks. That does make sense.
Barb
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (170 of 194), Read 15 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Saturday, March 10, 2001 11:38 PM
I just returned from a week's vacation. I am on page 405--about half
way through. I am happy to report that I am enjoying this book far
more than the first time I plowed through this book at the age of 13. It
was somewhat beyond me then, but I was determined to finish it, so I
repeatedly checked it out of the library until I finally reached the last
page.
Sherry asked a question about Dickens' women awhile back. Much as I
love the secondary female characters, I do think the female love
interests in his books are all of the same, unappealing (to me at least)
type -- pretty, child-like, and almost dimwitted. They are the kind of
woman who needs a strong man to take care of her. I think these
heroines are a peculiarity of Dickens, rather than 19th century literature
as a whole.
Still, this is a minor quibble. The other characters are very finely drawn.
Mr. Dick is my favorite too.
Ann
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (171 of 194), Read 12 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 08:12 AM
Ann-
David's mother and Dodo, er, I mean, Dora, are the Victorian ideal, for
sure. Emily is the fallen Angel type, needing a man to rescue her.
At least Dickens balances that out with Women of Sense, like Agnes,
Miss Mowcher, and Aunt Betsy. Of course, you'll note that only Agnes
ends up a winner of the marriage game.
I loved the way Aunt Betsy got herself out of a bad marriage.
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (172 of 194), Read 9 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 09:27 AM
speaking of Dodo...
Wasn't it irritating how Steerforth kept calling David DAISY?
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (173 of 194), Read 11 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@starband.net)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 11:22 AM
In one of the essays at the end of the book, (can't remember by whom,
just now), calling David "Daisy" was a manifestation of what some
literary critics think is the homoerotic elements of the
Steerforth/Copperfield couple. David did seem to love Steerforth in an
absolute way. I'm not sure I agree, but it is an interesting take.
Sherry
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (174 of 194), Read 11 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 11:35 AM
I thought the nickname, Daisy, was half cynical, and half wistful, on
Steerforth's part.
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (175 of 194), Read 11 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@starband.net)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 11:40 AM
That's a very good description of Steerforth all around, I think. Cynical
and wistful.
What do you all think about the two parents who were obsessively
devoted to their children, Steerforth's mother and Agnes' father?
Sherry
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (176 of 194), Read 11 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 11:55 AM
I think they were both quite different, and actually an improvement,
from David's mother who allowed her jerk of a second husband, and his
dried up old bitch of a sister to maltreat David.
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (177 of 194), Read 10 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@qwest.net)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 11:56 AM
Actually, a very excellent description of Steerforth, Kay. Clearly, the
Daisy reference started out when Steerforth was ribbing David about
his innocence and lack of sophistication. Later comes this:
He stopped, and, looking in my face, said, 'Daisy, I believe you are in
earnest, and are good. I wish we all were!' Next moment he was gaily
singing Mr. Peggotty's song, as we walked at a round pace back to
Yarmouth.
That "I wish we all were" is a wistful reference to himself and a sincere
one, I think. Unlike Uriah, Steerforth at least regretted his own nature
at times.
Steve
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (178 of 194), Read 11 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@qwest.net)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 12:02 PM
You may be being a little hard on David's mother, Beej. She was simply
a naïve and easily manipulated person. They were able to persuade her
that they were acting in David's interest.
However, we read of this in a modern context full of horrific stories
about the abuse of children by the new boyfriend or new husband. That
must color our view of this.
Steve
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (179 of 194), Read 12 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 12:03 PM
I don't think Steerforth really wished to be good or earnest. I think he
was a sham. And I took this Daisy business as a seemingly jocular, but
condescending, insult.
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (180 of 194), Read 14 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 12:06 PM
A bit hard on David's mother?..maybe..but there are couple things that
really REALLY bothered me about her. I guess it started with the
realization that she tried to sell David's caul. Yes, she was young and
she was easily manipulated, but we are talking of her child, here. And
she is a mother. This is her child and she stands and allows all this to
happen.
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (181 of 194), Read 9 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 12:15 PM
Beej-
I got the impression that the selling of David's caul was a kind of
tradition in seafaring communities. They supposedly protected seamen
from drowning. That didn't bother me.
What did get to me was how she allowed the Murdstones to verbally
AND physically abuse David. I don't care WHAT century she lived in, or
what traditions of a community were, a mother's natural instinct would
be to step in, and at least take the blows herself. I don't buy that she
truly believed it was for David's benefit. She wasn't that much of an
idiot.
Phew! This one always pushes my buttons, and no matter how many
times I'm told that it's a psychological problem for the mother, I do not
understand that kind of cowardice. The natural instinct of a mother is to
protect. As far as I know, it's only human females that would allow such
an attack on their children.
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (182 of 194), Read 9 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 12:05 PM
And, let's not forget Mrs. Heep.
Actually, in their own way, Aunt Betsy also doted, as did Mr. Wickham.
What was the essential difference, would you say?
As to Mrs. Steerforth and Mrs. Heep, I meet their paler versions all the
time. How often do we see parents who are always saying "It's not her
fault. The other kids did it too. If it hadn't been for them, this never
would have happened." or, "Not MY daughter."
Perhaps one difference is that Agnes and David were held accountable
for their behaviors. Another possibility is that they were treated with
compassion and respect, and were taught to extend the same to
others. Their home lives included a variety of family and adopted family.
And then there's Emily. Though she strayed, she accepted her role in
her fate. My heart ached for her perceived loss of family and friends.
To a certain extent, I think Steerforth also realized and accepted his
role. When he was pleading to David to remember the days of their
youth, he was acknowledging his part in Emily's downfall. He knew he
had done wrong. I'm not excusing him, especially for leaving her the
way he did. Yet Mrs. Steerforth put ALL the blame squarely where it
didn't belong - on Emily's seductive shoulders.
What, exactly, was the cause of the rift between Steerforth and his
mother? Was he so embarrassed that he refused to go back home? His
mother wasn't holding him responsible, was she?
Also - why the repeated references to the scar on ?'s face? (Can't
remember her name.) Was that supposed to represent the permanent
kind of damage Steerforth's temper and impulses could cause?
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (183 of 194), Read 13 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 12:09 PM
Yes, I think thats the difference Kay. The others didn't accept any
wrongdoing on the parts of their children. Mrs. Heep did, at the end, but
it was only to save here rotten son.
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (184 of 194), Read 12 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 12:13 PM
Steve, do you really think David's mother believed they were acting in
his best interests? Really?
Or was she just so weak she would let all this happen to him in order to
avoid conflict? David is telling this story. He is the narrator. His mother
WAS young and WAS sweet, in her youth. And he is telling her story
with love. But he is also relating some pretty harsh choices on her part.
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (185 of 194), Read 13 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 12:17 PM
Barb-
Glad you're enjoying this book. I'm still savoring its pages, and plan on
trying another Dickens in the near future.
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (186 of 194), Read 12 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 12:23 PM
Kay, I just read your post on David's caul and the bit about his mother
allowing her husband and sister-in-law to mistreat David.
I am SO glad somebody else sees what I see.
It IS a mother's natural instinct to protect her child! It just is. And she
didn't.
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (187 of 194), Read 9 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 12:26 PM
Okay, I'll back down on the idea that Steeforth's and Heep's mothers
were an improvement over David's. They created sons who believed
what their mothers taught them..that the world revolved around them (
even if they were 'umble..)
But I won't say David's mother was any better, but for other reasons.
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (188 of 194), Read 6 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 12:36 PM
Beej-
I think David's mother was very different from Mrs. Heep and Mrs.
Steerforth. Her mistakes were made with a gentle kind of
compassionate love. Theirs were made with a single minded desire to
make their own lives worthwhile through their sons. Big difference
there.
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (189 of 194), Read 5 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 12:41 PM
I agree with that, Kay.
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (190 of 194), Read 8 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 12:33 PM
Right, Beej. Even unassuming, meek, conceding Victorian women would
be able to rouse the right to defend their children. It's an instinct that
supercedes any social restrictions. It would even supercede fear for
herself. Nothing would bring the impulse to act like one's child being
attacked. If the woman needs an "excuse" to take action, it would
certainly be for her child's sake.
I think I would have had the same reaction if I were one of Dickens'
original audience. I realize I'm a product of modern thinking, but that
instinct is so atavistic, and embedded into my psyche, that I think it
would carry no matter what era I lived in.
Of course, Dickens wouldn't have had the same story, then. :-)
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (191 of 194), Read 10 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 12:37 PM
Maybe, too, if his mother had any backbone David would not have been
so attracted to 'Dumb Dora'.
But, then again, its my experience a lot of men are attracted to these
brainless, helpless fluffernutters.
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (192 of 194), Read 14 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 12:39 PM
( and you can translate the word 'fluffernutter' any way you might find
appropriate.)
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (193 of 194), Read 17 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 12:49 PM
Why, Beej. I am astounded!
Ruth
“Times are bad.Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is
writing a book." - Marcus Tullius Cicero
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (194 of 194), Read 15 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 12:52 PM
I know, Ruth. I sort of got on a roll, didn't I?
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (195 of 206), Read 24 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 01:52 PM
I had the sense that Dora was almost brainwashed, like a Patty
Hearst kind of phenomenon (if you're old enough to remember that).
A weak personality surrounded by two very strong, dominant
personalities could be persuaded that they were doing what was
best for her child, I think, at least in the beginning. In the end, she
was too ill and weak to intervene.
Do any of you have the Modern Library edition of this book with the
introduction by David Gates? I was reading the intro at Border's
today and it was excellent. He brought up the possible homoerotic
connection
between Steerforth and David, pointing out that Steerforth said he
wished David had a younger, timid sister. I had never heard of Gates
before but he's an author with several published novels. I loved the
style of his
intro. After I read a classic that is out in several editions, I love to just
go sit at Border's and check out the other intros. This one also had
the article by Virginia Woolf, but I didn't have time to read it.
I've also read that Dickens' father fell on financially very hard times
when Dickens was 10 or 12. At that time, he was sent out to work in
a factory that made boot black and he felt utterly abandoned. His
parents were also put in the poorhouse, like the Micawbers, and the
family was allowed to stay there with him. The article I read said that
Dickens blamed his being sent out to work more on his mother who
insisted that they needed him to do it. Maybe in light of that, David's
mother's actions didn't seem so outlandish.
Barb
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (196 of 206), Read 25 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 02:03 PM
That's interesting, Barb. Thanks!
I'm a bit surprised Dickens didn't expound more on child labor, now.
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (197 of 206), Read 18 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ee Lin Kuan (eelin@althor.fsnet.co.uk)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 05:33 PM
Kay, I thought Mrs Gummidge was secretly in love with Mr Peggotty
too.
Out of all the characters in the book, it seems that only the
Murdstones didn't get their just desserts. In fact, Mr Murdstone
remarried, and they ruined yet another girl's life, according to Mr
Joram.
Ee Lin
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (198 of 206), Read 19 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 06:12 PM
Barb -
You're right about David's mother being brainwashed. But even if I
accept that, I have a hard time reconciling to her acceptance of the
abuse. I cannot fathom a mother not reacting. She KNEW how much
David was suffering, and how unjustly. She questioned it in her own
mind, I think.
Your explanation makes sense, though. It's my hang up that keeps
me from feeling empathy for her.
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (199 of 206), Read 18 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 08:00 PM
I wonder had Mr. Murdstone's infant son survived if he would have
treated this child the same way he treated David.
I doubt it.
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (200 of 206), Read 17 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 08:04 PM
Interesting question, Beej. I don't think he would have been quite as
harsh. I think Mr. Murdstone was jealous of David's relationship with
his mother.
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (201 of 206), Read 15 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 08:23 PM
I was just glancing through DC, and I think Clara Copperfield was
afraid of Murdstone.
Also this:
"They had persuaded (my mother) that I was a wicked fellow."
Not an excuse for allowing such horrid treatment, but I think the
Murdstones convinced her that unless David's spirit was broken he
would come to a bad end.
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (202 of 206), Read 13 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 08:56 PM
Ok. I know we're supposed to grant Clara some latitude. It's just very
hard for me to do.
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (203 of 206), Read 14 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Sunday, March 11, 2001 08:58 PM
It is for me, too, Kay. I think I'm trying to justify it, because I really did
feel sorry for her.
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (204 of 206), Read 7 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
David Moody (davidmoody@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, March 12, 2001 07:35 AM
I think the Murdstones got what they deserved. They had each other.
David
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (205 of 206), Read 8 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Monday, March 12, 2001 07:59 AM
I've been thinking about the convenience of Dora's death, and I don't
think Dickens had much choice in writing it this way. Do you think
Copperfield would have stayed with Dora had she lived? I don't. And
if so, do you think Agnes would have married him if he walked out of
his marriage? Again, I don't. I don't think Agnes was the sort of
woman who would have understood 'irreconcilable differences'..even
if those were legal grounds for divorce in this time period.
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (206 of 206), Read 8 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Monday, March 12, 2001 08:00 AM
Also, I wonder if the saying "go fly a kite' came from DC and Mr. Dick's
kite flying.
Beej
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (207 of 214), Read 13 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, March 12, 2001 12:21 PM
Reading this discussion reminds me of how often we CRs turn to discussing
characters in books as if they were real people. Of course, it's a credit to
their creators when we do that, but perhaps before getting carried away on
the he-shouldas and she-shouldas we need to remember that poor dumb
Dora (is that where that expression comes from?) and poor dumb Mrs.
Copperfield were that way because they had no choice in the matter.
Dickens wrote them that way.
The better question, I think, is why he did. Is it a flaw in Dickens' writing that
some of us are unable to fathom Mrs. C's apparent lack of the motherhood
gene? Ditto with Dora. Should Dickens have made her more multisided, or at
least able to learn a little bit? Should he have made David's attraction to her
a little more understandable?
Ruth
“Times are bad.Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is
writing a book." - Marcus Tullius Cicero
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (208 of 214), Read 10 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, March 12, 2001 03:07 PM
No, it's not Dickens' flaw to write Clara as he did. I think he fully intended
her to be an empathetic, blameless creature. That's part of what created the
pathos of David's early life.
I do think he would have written her differently, in more depth, had he been
writing today.
As far as Dumb Dora, the only thing I could find for David's attraction was
his desire to protect and please her, as he couldn't his mother. Oh, yeah -
let's not forget - his undisciplined heart was at the mercy of his hormones. It
always amazes me when otherwise intelligent, savvy men go for the dumb
bunnies as life partners. Of course, David was young, and didn't know to
think about the rest of his life with one woman.
I understand your point, Ruth, about looking for the writer's intentions and
skills. It's a good one, and I need to keep that in mind. However, though I
can read a book analytically, with appreciation for style, I will not enjoy it as
much if the characters are foreign to me. Perhaps I read too emotionally,
but if I cannot get in a character's skin, I usually have a hard time enjoying
the book.
Part of the thrill of a good novel is getting to know the characters and finding
something about them that makes sense to me. I don't have to like them, or
respect them, but by George, I do have to have something in common with
them.
For me, a good read is an experience of intellectual, analytical, and
psychological involvement. One reason I like to discuss the motivations is
that I usually learn something new about myself and others, in why they
behave and think the way they do.
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (209 of 214), Read 12 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, March 12, 2001 03:13 PM
I agree, Kay. I definitely want the characters to come alive, to be real
people to me. I want to feel I could look across a room one day and think,
"Why that must be Dora Copperfield. I'd know her anywhere."
And it's fun to talk about them as if they were real. But don't you think it's a
good idea to also discuss on that other level?
I just mean that when we criticise a character's actions, or start talking
about what they should have done, we should remember they didn't have a
choice, and think about why the author did what he did.
It's something I have a hard time remembering myself.
Ruth
“Times are bad.Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is
writing a book." - Marcus Tullius Cicero
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (210 of 214), Read 12 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, March 12, 2001 03:28 PM
Yes, Ruth. I see your point.
I think part of an author's skill shows when she writes motivation for her
characters. I judge modern authors by another standard than I do authors
considered to be classic. But no matter the century an author represents, I
still require some point of contact between me and a character. If the
character's motivation is flat, or superficial, I am more likely to take issue
with it.
As I said before, child abuse is a BIG button for me, and I over reacted to
the whole abuse scenario. Of course, I did the same thing when reading
Justine. I could not find any point where I could relate to her, and I let that
interfere with my enjoyment of the prose, which I found exquisite. Believe it
or not, I have plans to read the rest of the quartet.
Trust me when I say I don't mean to take away from anyone's enjoyment of
a novel, just because I don't like the characters. I'm often out of step with
other readers. It doesn't really bother me, and sometimes I learn through
the ensuing discussion. I'm working on reading more analytically, but I think
a novel loses its soul and its impact when I step back too far from it.
Characters are what move a plot forward, and they usually take precedence
in my personal assessment of a book.
If I don't feel anything in common with a character, then I feel the author
hasn't done her job.
Let me add that though I was distressed with Clara, I still felt empathy
towards her. That's a credit to Dickens' skill. When an author can force a
reaction from me, in spite of whether I respect the character or not, then
that's a good author. Dickens qualifies.
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (211 of 214), Read 13 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, March 12, 2001 04:52 PM
I used to immerse myself in a story just the way you do, Kay. But since I
started writing myself, my analytic side keeps elbowing in. I'm not sure
that's a good thing.
But after I'm through reading, it takes nothing from the book for me, if I
look at it from both viewpoints.
And you're right in using different standards for contemporary literature and
the earlier stuff. Different times had different ways of approaching things.
That said, do you think if Dickens had made Dora improve just a tad, had
made it look as if maybe, just maybe, she and Davy were going to be happy
together, that perhaps it would have been more of a tragedy when she died,
rather than a rather convenient device to get her out of the way?
Ruth
“Times are bad.Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is
writing a book." - Marcus Tullius Cicero
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (212 of 214), Read 10 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, March 12, 2001 05:17 PM
Both viewpoints are necessary, for sure, Ruth. I enjoy the analysis, as well,
and if the style isn't there, the book doesn't mean much to me.
Yes, I think if Dickens had developed Dora as someone with a little more
substance, I probably wouldn't have felt such relief when she kicked the
bucket. I was saddened by her death, but only for a second, and saw it as a
second chance for David and Agnes.
Do you think Dickens liked Dora? From the way he wrote David's reaction to
her, I'd say he did not.
Beej-
I don't think David would have divorced Dora. He had so much integrity and
honor, and would have figured it was his duty to do his best by her.
However, he might have found a mistress, but it wouldn't have been Agnes.
How sad that would have been!
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (213 of 214), Read 12 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ee Lin Kuan (eelin@althor.fsnet.co.uk)
Date:
Monday, March 12, 2001 06:07 PM
David, I hadn't looked at the Murdstones from that angle before. As you say,
they certainly deserved each other. I just felt sorry for the girl that Mr
Murdstone subsequently married.
Ee Lin
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (214 of 214), Read 3 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, March 12, 2001 09:54 PM
Your point is very well taken, Ruth. My brother, who is a very analytical
reader, always reminds me that these are not the people next door. It's
usually a lot more fun to figure out how the author did it and why.
Personally, I think that Dickens was a little weak in the female love interest
area. He can write interesting women. Aunt Betsy, the dwarf, Mrs. Micawber,
even Miss Murdstone were characters with texture. But, once his lead
character falls in love with them, they're pretty insipid. In the case of DC, he
fell in that trap with the mother character as well. I can forgive him this
because his other characters are such a delight, but I find it interesting.
Barb
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (215 of 215), Read 12 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ee Lin Kuan (eelin@althor.fsnet.co.uk)
Date:
Tuesday, March 13, 2001 05:05 PM
Barb, don't you think that most of the characters, not just the
female ones, usually had one or two obvious traits, and these
were emphasized over and over again?
Ee Lin
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (227 of 237), Read 59 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ee Lin Kuan (eelin@althor.fsnet.co.uk)
Date:
Wednesday, March 21, 2001 05:58 PM
Barb, sorry for the late reply. I enjoy Jane Austen's books too! In comparing
the female characters by both authors, my first instinct was that I preferred
Austen's female characters to Dora and Clara as well. But then, I disliked
Lydia Bennett, Mrs Bennett and they were sort of similar to Dora and Clara in
some ways. I wanted to shake Dora and Clara many times. But perhaps they
were uninteresting or insipid because Dickens chose to make them so, and
not because he was unable to make them more interesting?
Ee Lin
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (228 of 237), Read 60 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, March 21, 2001 09:28 PM
Interesting point, Ee Lin, and one that we totally overlooked!
Barb...who is on the trek with David to Aunt Betsy's once again in the
audiobook....
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (229 of 237), Read 50 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ian Marks (comfortably_numb@ecosse.net)
Date:
Thursday, March 22, 2001 06:04 PM
>>I would love to read a good biography of Dickens.<<
Barbara ~~
Try Peter Ackroyd's 1000-pager.
Ian
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (230 of 237), Read 51 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, March 22, 2001 10:53 PM
Have you read it, Ian?
Barb
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (231 of 237), Read 50 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ian Marks (comfortably_numb@ecosse.net)
Date:
Friday, March 23, 2001 03:25 PM
Barb ~~
It's on one of the shelves. A friend who's a big Dickens fan raves about it.
Ian
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (232 of 237), Read 26 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ernest Belden (drernest@pacbell.net)
Date:
Monday, March 26, 2001 04:13 PM
What interested me in this discussion is the description and analysis of
female characters in the book. My own opinion is that they are described as
they were or should I say as people who could exist all right. Dickens
probably knew and had met such people and his description makes
interesting reading As to Dora, I have met similar ladies and felt they could
not help being what they are.
Is it my imagination or is Dickens less critical or descriptive of the male
characters? Well, he describes some of them very well and there seems to be
less feeling intensity there.
Yes I did like David's aunt. I do understand and respect her. She is a real
person and truly decent, generous, etc.
I must repeat myself and say once more how much I liked the book though it
was very strenuous to read all the 635 pages. I am toying with the idea (not
seriously) that I will never again read a book that long.
Ernie
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (233 of 237), Read 26 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, March 26, 2001 07:34 PM
Ernie-
Dora did have a certain amount of self awareness. I can't remember who
posted it, but someone mentioned that she seemed "willfully and selfishly
stubborn." Dora was wise enough to realize that for the marriage to work, it
would have to be David who made all the accommodations. I think if she
knew that much, she had the beginnings of at least trying to meet some of
David's needs as well.
Since she had that awareness, I have to wonder if she simply chose not to
try to change. Dickens seemed to imply that at points, when David was
writing about his marriage.
Clara, on the other hand, was written as a weak, gullible, and pliant person.
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (234 of 237), Read 27 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, March 26, 2001 07:41 PM
Could it be because both Clara and Dora were 'sweet, pretty young things.'
And the 19th c idea of a SPYT involved the kind of character that Dickens
gave them. Few brain cells, centered on foolish things, needing a man to tell
them what to do.
Ruth
“Physics is like sex. Sure, it has some practical results, but that's not why we do
it."
Richard Feynman
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (235 of 237), Read 27 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, March 26, 2001 09:07 PM
Ruth, SPYT? I'm assuming that sweet young thing is in there, but what does
the P stand for?
In my reread in audiobook form, I noticed the detail that Clara was an orphan
as well. She was working as a governess when David's father met her and
paid her "a lot of attention". Somehow, knowing that she was an orphan
makes her personality more understandable to me.
Ernie, didn't you love the part where Aunt Betsy tells off Mr. Murdstone when
he comes to get David? I just heard that again on the audiobook and loved
every minute once again.
Barb
Barb
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (236 of 237), Read 33 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, March 26, 2001 09:33 PM
Sweet Pretty Young Thing. I believe 19th c young women who were not
pretty were more commonly allowed to have brains.
Ruth
“Physics is like sex. Sure, it has some practical results, but that's not why we do
it."
Richard Feynman
Topic:
David Copperfield by Dickens (237 of 237), Read 31 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, March 27, 2001 09:35 PM
Ah, of course, Ruth. How did I miss that?
Barb
|
Charles Dickens
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