Amazon.com:
In Beowulf warriors must back up their mead-hall boasts with instant action, monsters abound, and fights are always to the death. The Anglo-Saxon epic, composed between the 7th and 10th centuries, has long been accorded its place in literature, though its hold on our imagination has been less secure. In the introduction to his translation, Seamus Heaney argues that Beowulf's role as a required text for many English students obscured its mysteries and "mythic potency." Now, thanks to the Irish poet's marvelous recreation (in both senses of the word) under Alfred David's watch, this dark, doom-ridden work gets its day in the sun.
There are endless pleasures in Heaney's analysis, but readers should head straight for the poem and then to the prose. (Some will also take advantage of the dual-language edition and do some linguistic teasing out of their own.) The epic's outlines seem simple, depicting Beowulf's three key battles with the scaliest brutes in all of art: Grendel, Grendel's mother (who's in a suitably monstrous snit after her son's dismemberment and death), and then, 50 years later, a gold-hoarding dragon "threatening the night sky / with streamers of fire." Along the way, however, we are treated to flashes back and forward and to a world view in which a thane's allegiance to his lord and to God is absolute. In the first fight, the man from Geatland must travel to Denmark to take on the "shadow-stalker" terrorizing Heorot Hall. Here Beowulf and company set sail:
Men climbed eagerly up the gangplank,
sand churned in the surf, warriors loaded
a cargo of weapons, shining war-gear
in the vessel's hold, then heaved out,
away with a will in their wood-wreathed ship.
Over the waves, with the wind behind her
and foam at her neck, she flew like a bird...
After a fearsome night victory over march-haunting and heath-marauding Grendel, our high-born hero is suitably strewn with gold and praise, the queen declaring: "Your sway is wide as the wind's home, / as the sea around cliffs." Few will disagree. And remember, Beowulf has two more trials to undergo.
Heaney claims that when he began his translation it all too often seemed "like trying to bring down a megalith with a toy hammer." The poem's challenges are many: its strong four-stress line, heavy alliteration, and profusion of kennings could have been daunting. (The sea is, among other things, "the whale-road," the sun is "the world's candle," and Beowulf's third opponent is a "vile sky-winger." When it came to over-the-top compound phrases, the temptations must have been endless, but for the most part, Heaney smiles, he "called a sword a sword.") Yet there are few signs of effort in the poet's Englishing. Heaney varies his lines with ease, offering up stirring dialogue, action, and description while not stinting on the epic's mix of fate and fear. After Grendel's misbegotten mother comes to call, the king's evocation of her haunted home may strike dread into the hearts of men and beasts, but it's a gift to the reader:
A few miles from here
a frost-stiffened wood waits and keeps watch
above a mere; the overhanging bank
is a maze of tree-roots mirrored in its surface.
At night there, something uncanny happens:
the water burns. And the mere bottom
has never been sounded by the sons of men.
On its bank, the heather-stepper halts:
the hart in flight from pursuing hounds
will turn to face them with firm-set horns
and die in the wood rather than dive
beneath its surface. That is no good place.
In Heaney's hands, the poem's apparent archaisms and Anglo-Saxon attitudes--its formality, blood-feuds, and insane courage--turn the art of an ancient island nation into world literature. --Kerry Fried .
Topic:
July: Beowulf (1 of 102), Read 126 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Friday, June 15, 2001 10:26 PM
Beginning July 1, Classics Corner will discuss Beowulf, in the
widely acclaimed modern translation by Seamus Heaney.
The Constant Reader selection for July is Grendel by John
Gardner. This is a retelling of the Beowulf story from the
monster's point of view.
Past Classic Corner/Constant Reader pairings have led to
some great discussions. I hope you can join us.
Ann
Topic:
July: Beowulf (2 of 102), Read 107 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 28, 2001 04:28 AM
Ann -- I was thinking of reading these two simultaneously --
making the comparisons as I went along -- since I've never
read either of them. But I got to wondering if those of you
have read one or the other or both would recommend this?
I have both ready and waiting -- am hoping I will race along
as well in these as I have been in the books I've been
hauling in from the bib, the supermarket and the used
books section of De Slegte lately -- not to mention "other"
sources{G}.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (3 of 102), Read 108 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 28, 2001 06:34 AM
Just read the first few pages of each and think I may have
my answer -- I think my brain won't do the shift between
the poetic and the prose -- all contrast between the old
style and new style of the language itself -- just the forms
will keep me from gaining anything from doing both at once.
SO Beowulf -- here I come!
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (4 of 102), Read 111 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Janet Mego (vsjego@cs.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 28, 2001 10:32 AM
I think I'm going to actually get to do these since I am
through with all my reading obligations for my test and with
the test itself (about which, probably, the less said the
better.)
Looking forward to it!
Janet
Topic:
July: Beowulf (5 of 102), Read 99 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, June 29, 2001 09:47 PM
I will be out of town next week, but I have Seamus Heaney
reading his translation of Beowulf on CD. Remarkable and
amazing stuff. I find this translation first-rate.
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (6 of 102), Read 95 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@starband.net)
Date:
Saturday, June 30, 2001 07:19 AM
I've only five or six more pages left to go. I just couldn't stay
awake a moment longer. I bet his reading is wonderful, Dan.
I would love to hear it after I finish reading it. Did it contain
the introduction? I usually don't read introductions, but I
think it's absolutely necessary in this case.
Sherry
Topic:
July: Beowulf (7 of 102), Read 97 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Saturday, June 30, 2001 08:27 AM
I'll be reading B in the car on our way to and from Boone,
NC. We won't be back until Monday, so I imagine I'll have a
lot of CC to catch up on.
I'm really looking forward to pairing this with Grendel on the
15th.
K
Topic:
July: Beowulf (8 of 102), Read 92 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Monday, July 02, 2001 11:54 AM
Well, Beowulf is done and I'm on to Grendel and I have to
say I'm waiting for the CR "experts" on Beowulf to tell me
what I just read and why Heaney's translation is so
marvelous and in comparison to what is this translation so
much improved and -- well, you can see I have a lot of
questions! {G} Maybe I'm just not very WITH it here -- but
old Beowulf left me "prettige verdomde koud" -- hope
someone can 'splain it so I warm up just a little bit!
Now Grendel!! Heh -- I'm laughing out loud and the blurb on
the home page says something about it being sad and
beautiful -- maybe I haven't got to the sad parts -- anyway I
find myself liking this old monster a LOT -- uh-oh -- isn't
Beowulf the great hero of ancient time and Grendel his
enemy? -- I may be in really deep trouble this time. Gulp.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (9 of 102), Read 92 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Monday, July 02, 2001 12:07 PM
Dottie,
I'm about half way through with Beowulf. What strikes me
most at this point is that it must have been a terribly
frightening period in history for people to conjure up such
terrible monsters to express the hardships and terror of
their lives.
I liked this passage from the introduction. It explains the
worldview of these people:
All conceive of themselves as hooped within the great wheel of
necessity, in thrall to a code of loyalty and bravery bound to
seek glory in the eye of the warrior world. The little nations are
grouped around their lord, the greater nations spoil for war and
menace the little ones, a lord dies, defenselessness ensues,
the enemy strikes, vengeance for the dead becomes an ethic
for the living, bloodshed begs further bloodshed, the wheel
turns, the generations tread and tread and tread.
No wonder this was called the Dark Ages. :)
Ann
Topic:
July: Beowulf (10 of 102), Read 93 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Monday, July 02, 2001 06:47 PM
On 7/2/01 12:07:08 PM, Ann Davey wrote:
>Dottie,
>......
>I liked this passage from the
>introduction. It explains the
>worldview of these people:
>
>All conceive of themselves as
>hooped within the great wheel
>of necessity, in thrall to a
>code of loyalty and bravery
>bound to seek glory in the eye
>of the warrior world. The
>little nations are grouped
>around their lord, the greater
>nations spoil for war and
>menace the little ones, a lord
>dies, defenselessness ensues,
>the enemy strikes, vengeance
>for the dead becomes an ethic
>for the living, bloodshed begs
>further bloodshed, the wheel
>turns, the generations tread
>and tread and tread.
>
>No wonder this was called the
>Dark Ages. :)
>
>Ann
>
Ann, this sounds just like our world nowadays though --
people/individuals chained into necessity (and if you carry
thru with the code of loyalty and all that -- think of gangs) --
the little nations grouped around their lord -- well now it's
more like each little nation each struggling little emerging
nation has its own lord and the larger nations war and
threaten the little nations and a lord dies (or is killed and
chaos ensues and revenge is sought and then the next
leader falls -- isn't this how it goes even now? Some of the
larger nations have longer treads between the
bloodshedding -- some seem to be immune to it -- but they
aren't -- measure the years between Presidential
assassinations in our own land -- it isn't all that great.
Generations tread and tread and the wheel (earth? life?
history?)turns -- read that as CYCLES.
Hmmmm --- thanks, I'm going to reread this as the
discussion gets underway -- but just now I wanted to add
up there -- "Nothing new under the sun ... vanity of
vanities" -- does it fit maybe?
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (11 of 102), Read 95 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Monday, July 02, 2001 06:58 PM
Ouch -- and thus -- is every age a Dark Age in some
fashion? I would certainly think this might be a theory which
could find support. But oh my -- such a bleak thought when
it's typed right out there. Maybe I'll think on that idea some
more.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (12 of 102), Read 95 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Monday, July 02, 2001 07:56 PM
Dottie, I think your last couple of posts demonstrates why
this book is still read, and why this translation is popular.
Plus, you even sound like an expert!!! she says grinning. I
really appreciate these posts. this is a book that, for me at
least, it's nice to talk about with other people. I feel like this
about the trauma of reading Waiting For The Barbarians.
The world feels big and scary. Nice to hear some warm
voices...
Candy
Topic:
July: Beowulf (13 of 102), Read 99 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, July 02, 2001 08:48 PM
Dottie-
I think your take on B is an apt one.
As far as why this epic poem still intrigues us, I have only my
own reactions to go by.
One, it's a terrific story in its own right. I could see the hand
to hand combat with Grendel and Beowulf's swim to the
bottom of the swamp land to avenge Aeschele's death. I felt
a sense of suspense and was eager to see what happened.
Another reason this poem resonates with me is the
allegorical meaning I find woven into the tale. It's a caution
against getting too wrapped up in our own glory or the
glory of others. Life is ephemeral and fight as we will, we all
fall to the same fate.
Did anyone see an element of good vs. evil? I did.
And all that business about gold being of the earth, and
returning to the earth, was definitely a caution to readers.
Trite, perhaps, but that message is there.
It seems to me there was also a message about the nature
of revenge - though it may temporarily satisfy, it eventually
leads to more pain and distress of the soul. We're human,
and so desire revenge, but all it leads to is more of the
same and despair for those who exact it.
The biblical references to Cain were sending a message as
well, I think.
This was a first reading for me, though I remember my
mother talking about the poem at the dinner table. What a
read.
If I had to guess what Grendel's pov would be, I'd guess it
would have to do with his being excluded from the
companionship of the people in the mead hall. He hears
their laughter and resents being ostracized for something
his ancestors did. Dunno. Just a guess.
K
Topic:
July: Beowulf (14 of 102), Read 99 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Monday, July 02, 2001 08:54 PM
Kay, great post and thoughts really enjoyed this. Wow, lots
to think about!
candy
Topic:
July: Beowulf (15 of 102), Read 98 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 03, 2001 02:03 AM
Okay, thank you for those kind words friends -- but I'm
sticking to that 'prettige verdomde koud' line back there! It
was FLAT -- for all that hand to hand and all that heavy
"stuff" it was saying it was not sparkling and exciting
wordplay -- or am I really way outside the mark on that? I
found it bumpy and stumbling in places when I needed it to
flow. As I said up there somewhere, I'm opening it up and
starting with the Intro again -- bear with me! I can't wait to
hear more comments from others as I move through this
again.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (16 of 102), Read 99 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
S. Bohinka (bohinka@riconnect.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 03, 2001 03:08 AM
Dottie,
I haven't started yet but when I first compared Heaney's
translation to another couple 'modern' ones in the library, I
thought the others were better. Of course they aren't
available to buy. But I will go back to the library for them if I
get bogged down.
One of the authors of a translation I liked did what I'm
guessing is another one. (I don't have his old one here to
compare.) He's Kevin Crossley-Holland and this is an Oxford
World Classic. I'll let you know how it holds up compared to
Heaney.
Bo
Topic:
July: Beowulf (17 of 102), Read 100 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 03, 2001 03:16 AM
So -- this Heaney translation being "newest" then is the
only one out there to buy? Sigh -- I was hoping I could hop
out on the web or have the bookie daughter find me
something else that I could compare notes. Never having
read this before at all -- somehow it seems I am being
downright rude when Heaney's new translation is being so
highly touted but I just expected more soaring verbiage
somehow.
Dottie -- grumble, grumble, grumble -- sheesh -- shut up and
read it again. lady -- {G}.
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (18 of 102), Read 98 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherri Kendrick (sheval@hotmail.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 03, 2001 05:32 AM
I'm still reading, and have only got to the arrival of Beowulf.
I find it easy reading, the translation flows and it reads
more like a story than a poem. I remember having to read
this in school, I don't know who's translation, but it was
very hard to understand. This one I understand. Too early
to tell if I'm going to enjoy the story though.
Sherri
Topic:
July: Beowulf (19 of 102), Read 97 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 03, 2001 08:40 AM
Heaney's translation definitely reads more as a story than a
poem, though Heaney explains the meter in his intro. I did
find several turns of phrases that struck me as poetic -
"...bloodying the path,
hauling his doom to the demons' mere."
"..., looped in it" in reference to Grendel's pain after the
battle.
"...outcast from all sweetness" in reference to Cain's
descendents. Oh, the pain that would inspire!
"...out of its depths a dirty surge
is pitched towards the heavens" in reference to the marsh
where Grendel lived.
I think it's important to remember that this poem was
probably meant to be heard rather than read. It was a
minstrel's entertainment offering. In order to hold an
audience, it would have to have lots of action and be easy
to understand. I think the author's intention was to
entertain and teach a lesson or two. There's nothing
obscure to ponder on. All attention is focused on the action
and message. It's a good story, I think.
I'll admit I'm assuming there's a reason for B's importance in
poetic history beyond the fact it's been in every Intro to
English Lit textbook for centuries. Isn't part of that
significance due to its having been one of the first epic
poems? I don't know enough about poetry to comment on
its influence on poetry through the ages, or what made B.
different from anything that had come before. I'm sure
someone at CR is qualified to give a brief lecture, though. :-)
K
Topic:
July: Beowulf (20 of 102), Read 98 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 03, 2001 09:39 AM
Kay -- I got the feeling it was sheer age -- in the English
language -- but I am awaiting further expert input on this
work.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (21 of 102), Read 100 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 03, 2001 02:02 PM
Dottie,
I hope to finish this over the holiday.
I know what you mean though. We read Robert Fagle's
translation of THE ODYSSEY here on CC and this doesn't
measure up. Of course, Fagle had a much more polished
original to work with.
As for the quote from the introduction, now that you
mention it, I can see similarities to today. However, my
impression was that the world of BEOWULF was very foreign
to our own. There was such a sense of fate and repetition,
whereas we live with the illusion that we are the masters of
our fate (as Tim Mcveigh liked to believe). Also, it seems that
their definition of success was completely different. Honor
and glory in physical combat seemed the highest goals.
Of course, in real life, as opposed to epic ballads, my guess
is that most of their energies were focused simply on trying
to survive.
One more comment on the introduction. It has been a long
time since I read anything with so many unfamiliar words. I
refused to look them up, instead trying to guess the best I
could from context. I know finding the perfect word is of
critical importance to poets, but if the word doesn't
communicate to your audience, isn't it defeating the
purpose?
Of course, the rest of you whizzes may have had no
problem with the vocabulary. Overall, I think the quality of
the introduction was excellent, so this is just a quibble.
Ann
Topic:
July: Beowulf (22 of 102), Read 100 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 03, 2001 03:57 PM
This Beowulf thing is not conducive to giving me the idea I
am a whiz-kid, Ann. I started rereading at the intro and am
going slowly, slowly to get every bit of info I can possibly
get -- First time through I read it as always but not at
breakneck speed as I have been tending to gulp everything
down. But then I read the poem part through without a lot
of examination and thinking about the odd words. This time
I am going to do some study along the way or mesh the
reading with comments from others -- where the heck are all
these Beowulf folks anyway?
HAPPY FOURTH -- we are neither in a place for celebration --
I'm here and Jim is in Japan - heh!
Dottie -- in hot humid Hasselt
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (23 of 102), Read 104 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Elaine Walsh (elainewalsh@usa.net)
Date:
Tuesday, July 03, 2001 04:51 PM
I received this book as a gift from my husband a year ago
and felt guilty that I couldn't get through it. Then I saw that
CC would discuss it in July, and I picked it up again. NOW I'm
finding it very readable and interesting. I'm about 2/3
through the book.
I like the language of the translation, though I can't
compare it to any previous readings; I never read it in
school. I think it's a satisfying blend of direct, accessible
language and poetic beauty. I would LOVE to hear the
audiotape.
While reading B, I've mainly had two questions floating
through my brain:
1. What does Grendel LOOK like? And what does his horrid
mother look like? Sometimes I envision dragon-like
creatures, and then I read about a "hand" and think maybe
it's more human-like. I'm curious about how other people
picture Grendel.
2. What does this epic tell us about the mindset of people in
this age? They do seem to have a more intimate relationship
with death and destruction. This may seem silly, because we
in the 21st century have surely not triumphed over death
and violence. And yet, in our post-modern Western world, I
think we try very hard to not think about death so much,
and to hide it somehow. Definitely in B's time there were
different ideas about Fate.
In terms of the references to Cain: I believe there's
something in Genesis that mentions otherworldly creatures
who live on Earth, separate from humans. I'm hoping there
are some people out there who know more about the bible
than I do, and also what beliefs these people had about the
bible.
Oh dear, I guess I really did have 3 questions.
I'm enjoying the discussion; thanks for inspiring me to come
back to this book.
--Elaine
Topic:
July: Beowulf (24 of 102), Read 100 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 04, 2001 03:10 PM
Elaine,
It's great to see you back here!
The poem really doesn't give us a clear idea of the
appearance of Grendel and his mother, does it? The final
challenger, described as reptilian and constantly breathing
fire, was definitely a dragon, but not G and his Mom.
Beginning with line 1350, the author describes huge
man-like creatures:
I have heard it said by my people in hall,
counsellors who live in the upland country,
that they have seen two such creatures
prowling the moors, huge marauders
from some other world. One of these things,
as far as anyone ever can discern,
looks like a woman; the other, warped
in the shape of a man, moves beyond the pale
bigger than any man, an unnatural birth
called Grendel by country people
in former days. They are fatherless creatures, and their whole
ancestry is hidden in a past of demons and ghosts.
So, they seem to resemble huge humans in certain respects
at least. They are also described as the descendents of
Cain, as you pointed out, so they have a human ancestry.
We know that Grendel has shoulders, arms and hands
because Beowulf chops them off. But both he and his
mother are described as having talons, and the author
refers to Grendel's claw, so there seems to be some other
genetic influences. :)
In his introduction, Heaney describes the reader's
impression of Grendel as "a kind of dog-breath in the dark, a
fear of collision with some hard-boned and immensely
strong android frame, a mixture of Caliban and hoplite."
In case you are wondering what a hoplite is,(silly me, I had
no idea), the dictionary defines it as "a heavily armed foot
soldier of ancient Greece."
I wonder why the descriptions of Grendel and mother are so
vague in the narrative.
Ann
Topic:
July: Beowulf (25 of 102), Read 101 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Wednesday, July 04, 2001 04:07 PM
I blush to admit I haven't tackled this one. One exposure to
Beowulf in English Lit put me off it for life. (Altho I did enjoy
Grendel.)
But on the descriptions thing. Remember when it was
originally written, sometime in the 10th century. And haven't
I heard that it may have been in the oral tradition some time
before that? Anyway, Heany's got to work with the material
he has. And that material evidently doesn't have much in
the way of images.
Just think back to some of the older English literature you've
read. Even stuff from the 18th and 19th century isn't always
big on description. They will say something like "horrendous,
slavering beast," but that doesn't give you any kind of
concrete description.
Modern fiction is much more likely to tell you the beast has a
head the size of a Volkswagen, with orange eyes, green
teeth and dripping yellow saliva. And leave you on your own
to conclude that it's a horrendous slavering beast.
As you were.
Ruth
"We are each of us like our little blue planet, hung in black
space, upheld by nothing but our mutual reassurances, our
loving lies." John Updike
Topic:
July: Beowulf (26 of 102), Read 99 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 04, 2001 04:42 PM
Probably the influence of the Grendel on the cover of
Gardner's book but I think the brief description does bear it
out as well -- my image is of a very large creature like a
bigfoot or Saskwatch (sp?) but with greater bulk -- kinda like
bigfoot had been working on his pects and abs and so on!
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (27 of 102), Read 98 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 04, 2001 09:24 PM
I first read Beowulf entirely on my own. I loved the
comic-book portions of the book: The supervillian, the
superhero, the supervillian's vengeful mother, and a
surprise visit by a fire-breathing dragon. This was heady but
amazing stuff. Also, as a teen, I was a sucker for kenning:
the 'whale road' and such.
But Heaney's translation is, for me, a cut above the rest
because he imbues it with a pathos, a sense of loss, that I
find missing from earlier translations. There's a sense of
foreboding for the future reflected in the stories of the past
told during the dinners held in Beowulf, dinners where the
lyre is used to accompany stories of betrayal and massacre.
What is the message of Beowulf? What was a listener to
carry away with him? The poet is not simply delineating a
boastful story--there's more here than just Beowulf. It is the
very sections I tended to ignore in my youth that may in fact
hold the key to this poem's true purpose: What is with all
the past stories the poet insists on retelling? How are they
tied together and what do they suggest the listener to with
the story they are now hearing of Beowulf?
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (28 of 102), Read 96 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 05, 2001 02:56 AM
Okay, Dan! SO I'll keep these in mind while I'm RE-reading
this cause as my initial runthrough left me flat by which I
mean under-whelmed as opposed to wiped-out by the
wonderful experience. But I know there's more here than I
was getting -- how do I know? Reading and re-reading that
introduction. Heaney's in love with the language -- he had
to do this better than the folks who did it before, right? So
I'm setting off on the poem itself today for the second
journey. And I'm skimming through this discussion from time
to time as I read it again.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (29 of 102), Read 92 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 05, 2001 06:12 AM
Dan-
I mentioned some of the hidden messages in post # 13.
There are several running themes, I think.
Good v. Evil
The ephemeral nature of glory.
Gold ain't all it's cracked up to be. Though it may last, we do
not.
Revenge may feel great at the time, but all it eventually
does is create despair and ruination.
There is also a biblical message that points to the
descendants of Cain as representatives of people alienated
from God's people.
What other messages are hidden in the tale?
K
Topic:
July: Beowulf (30 of 102), Read 92 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 05, 2001 09:13 AM
I have discovered that my initial read was just a case of a
horrendous dress rehearsal leading to a wonderful first
night performance -- in other words, As I started into my
immediate rereading of this I am having very little of the flat
and underwhelmed feeling I had as I plodded through the
first time -- and I am seeing the more subtle details that
attach themselves to one and the other of the characters
and the subthreads of this poem. I think I'm going to be
very glad I read this one finally.
I also began reading Grendel as I was rereading the
Beowulf intro -- I found some tiny things along the way in
the earliest of it that I now find have their base directly in
the lines of the poem.
One example -- in line 701-2:
"Then out of the night
came the shadow-stalker, stealthy and swift;"
It echoed a line that I had read in Grendel when I first
skimmed through it -- this line, for some reason has really
captured me though at one point I nearly convinced myself I
had dreamed it up.
I didn't dream it up -- pg.7 in Grendel:
"Such are the tiresome memories of a shadow-shooter,
earth-rim-roamer, walker of the world's weird wall." That
description is lodged in by being and will NOT go away --
and when I located it again in the print, I found that the
echo haunting me as I searched had been letter perfect
though I'd read it in a hurry and then lost it so completely! It
is as though that line immediately branded itself into my
brain. That Grendel is going to tell some story.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (31 of 102), Read 95 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 05, 2001 01:14 PM
One of the strangest ironies to be found in the history of
English literature is the status of the poem Beowulf as the
oldest treasure in the language. Very few poems have
explored the problematic nature of treasure and its relation
to human desire and destiny as intensely as Beowulf does.
The Beowulf poet unleashes nearly every possible meaning
latent in the symbols of value employed in his epic. In fact,
as the concept of treasure expands to include human
memory, wisdom, physical strength, and the outlasting of
death itself, the poet of Beowulf achieves a significant feat
of literary art.
The most striking (and central) poetic strategy to be found
in Beowulf is the poet’s consistent juxtaposition of unlikely
verbal and symbolic elements to create memorable poetry
and ideas that jump out of the poem like sparks leaping
from a fire. The issue of Beowulf’s fame is hardly raised
before it is immediately sabotaged (to great comic effect) as
Beowulf debates Unferth about the truth of the heroic tales
already being told about Beowulf himself. If seekers for
heroic ideals are already being put on their guard, anyone
fascinated by monsters and evil must be equally
uncomfortable with the presentation of Grendel as a
malignant guest in Heorot who is forced to leave his own
arm as a gruesome ‘visitor’s token’.
The manner of Grendel’s death is tinged with irony as this
most unwanted of guests is physically prevented from
leaving by the strength of Beowulf’s grasp. Even Heorot
itself is an unstable symbol, shadowed by the
foreknowledge of its fiery end and reduced in nobility by
Grendel’s use of it as a bizarre feeding ground.
On a more human level, the usefulness of loyalty is called
into question by the battle with Grendel, as Beowulf’s
companions join the fray, uselessly hacking at Grendel with
weapons that can have no effect on him. This moment of
time will be reversed at the end of Beowulf’s heroic career,
when, engaged in a fatal struggle with the dragon,
Beowulf’s warriors desert him at the only point when en
masse assistance could have done him some good.
Revenge, the flip side of loyalty’s coin, is presented with
equal ambiguity. The first character to seek pure revenge, to
personally kill one enemy for one friend slain, is Grendel’s
mother. Hrothgar is motivated more by self-defense, and
Beowulf’s purposes could include virtually anything except
revenge. The best representative of the warrior’s code of
revenge in the first half of the poem is the female
hell-spawn that Beowulf will eventually cut down with her
own weapon.
Embedded in this conceptual swirl are the poet’s verbal
gems, words welded together to display the unusual facets
of commonplace ideas. In this ‘word-hoard’ of a poem,
warriors cross the ‘whale-road’ to battle and exchange
‘hand-payments’. Beowulf (or Bee-Wolf) returns from his
descent into the witch’s cave with only two relics: the hilt of
a magic sword that melted in the heat of battle into
‘bloody-icicles’, and the head of Grendel. The hilt of the
sword is engraved with runes that tell of its origin and the
part is has played in great deeds. The blade has been
destroyed and replaced, so to speak, by Grendel’s head
itself. Beowulf has joined the heroic story. Hrothgar confirms
this explicitly as he contemplates the hilt and says:
“Now can he say, who acts in truth and right for his people,
remembers our past, old guard of homeland: this prince was
born the better man! Your glorious name is raised on high
over every nation. Beowulf my friend, your fame spreads
far.”
Topic:
July: Beowulf (32 of 102), Read 96 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 05, 2001 01:16 PM
...The spatial replacement of symbol for symbol is made
more apparent later in the poem, when the dragon’s barrow
is almost visibly overlapped by the similarity between it and
Beowulf’s death monument. The poet shows a shrewd
understanding of how symbols, words, and ideas become
more vivid in a poem by being simultaneously similar in
details and different in their implications. This cognitive clash
of elements is kept to a fairly simple level of binary
oppositions by the poet, however, most likely so as not to
overload the rhythm of the poem in oral presentation. It is
around the conceptual pairing of fame/treasure that the
Beowulf poet risks most, and achieves most, by opening and
exploring an incredible variety of perspectives on how fame
resembles treasure as a value, while invariably retaining a
lethal aspect.
The two largest representations of fame and treasure in the
poem are Beowulf’s legend and the dragon’s hoard
respectively. Beowulf’s growing fame, and the memory of his
deeds, bear an eerie verbal similarity to the treasure of the
dragon. We only seem to be sure of the end of the dragon’s
power when he is ‘cut off from his gold’. The dragon’s hoard
has rusted, decayed from disuse, although the dragon still
fiercely protects it, keeping ‘waves of flame’ always dancing
in front of it. The treasure itself is invested with considerable
menace, as if it generates its own threat. Likewise,
Beowulf’s strength and vigor have also decayed, though he
has generated enough menace himself to keep his entire
tribe unmolested by outward assaults for half a century.
Since the dragon has been provoked into his rampages by a
random theft from his hoard it is difficult to blame him for
Beowulf’s death, and in any case, they are figures of almost
commensurate power. The balance is tipped by the
desertion of Beowulf’s warriors and the poet makes it clear
that Beowulf is killed by forgetfulness. His tribe forgets what
Beowulf has done for them, and, in a moment of crisis, they
also forget his individual value to the whole community as
protector-king. The only warrior who rushes to Beowulf’s
aid, Wiglaf, does so because he ‘remembers the honors’
that Beowulf has done him and hence he ‘could not hold
back’ from the battle. Wiglaf tells his fellow warriors: ‘I know
for a truth that the worth of his (Beowulf’s) deeds is not so
poor that alone among Geats he should suffer, fall in
combat.”
If the forgetfulness that turns Beowulf’s tribe into
wrong-thinking men is the pragmatic reason for his death,
the reason for his semi-victory over the dragon is even more
apparent: he remembers his own heroic deeds and boasts.
In fact, the whole secret of Beowulf’s extraordinary career
throughout the poem, at least from an artistic standpoint, is
the fact that his memory works in tandem with his will to
give him his power. His fight with the dragon is typical of
every one of Beowulf’s encounters in this way. ‘Then the
war-king recalled his past glories, with huge strength swung
his blade so hard…’ The thought and action are virtually
identical to Beowulf because he is both physically and
mentally a hero. No other figure in the poem is described in
these terms of memory equaling action. The implications of
this are far-reaching. Both Beowulf and the Beowulf poet
derive their strength from the faculty of memory. Both the
poet and his creation are concerned primarily with
maintaining the Beowulf legend over and above all else.
Beowulf the hero comes to understand, finally, what the
poet has always known: Beowulf is his people’s greatest
treasure. He has undergone a virtual schooling in the vital
role that artifacts play in creating and sustaining a heroic
myth. The first relic of his heroism is, of course, Grendel’s
arm. Almost immediately, Grendel’s mother steals it from
him, in essence, raiding his hoard. Beowulf then proceeds to
gather the treasure that represents his immanent legendary
status, one piece at a time. A collar here, a hilt there, all
objects rooted in older stories yet feeding into Beowulf’s
own self-willed tale. Once the pieces are gathered, time
takes over and works its inevitable magic on his treasure so
that it becomes more potent (and dangerous) as story and
rumor even as Beowulf’s actual powers begin to fail.
Given Beowulf’s age and importance by the end of the
poem, is his risking a battle with the dragon the act of a
selfish or prideful man? Many elements in the poem would
seem to say so, but the poet’s compulsive thought and
word matching point to a different interpretation.
After Beowulf and Wiglaf have vanquished the dragon, as
Beowulf is dying, he turns to Wiglaf and says: ‘Now that I
have given my old life-span for this heap of treasures…’ Life
for treasure: is that an accurate assessment of Beowulf’s
career? Nothing in the poem previous to this moment would
indicate so. Life for fame would be more accurate, not
treasure…but can Beowulf even tell the difference at this
point? Earlier, when Beowulf decides to fight the dragon he
says: ‘I wish even now, an old folk-guard, to seek a quarrel,
do a great deed…’ The confusion of motivations is a fusion of
motivations. The dragon hovers above the gathered
elements of his own story (the hoard) and here, at the end,
Beowulf does what he has always done: he declares war on
any legend that would compete with his own. He conquers
the only evil he was ever truly concerned about: being
forgotten. The poem ends on an elegiac couplet that is often
mistaken as a covert condemnation: (Beowulf was) ‘…the
kindest to his men, the most courteous man, the best to his
people, and most eager for fame.’ The eagerness for fame is
often wrongly contrasted with the ‘purer’ virtues of
kindness, courteousness, and excellence, but the real
contrast here is the threefold beat of anonymity (men, man,
people) trumped by the richness of Beowulf’s story.
Beowulf, a work that straddles the divides of oral and
written poetry, epic praise and lament, and Christianity and
paganism among others, is bound to pull intellectually and
culturally in many directions. Poetically, however, the
figurations that align memory and treasure are unified, as
can be seen in the elegiac passages that describe the last
moments of both Beowulf and the dragon. Beowulf
constructs a self-memorial in his imagination, his ‘barrow’,
which sailors will think of as their ‘steep ships drive out on
the sea, on the darkness of waters, from lands far away.’ In
just a few lines, the poet turns his attention to the dragon,
who will ‘no more whirl through the midnight air, breathing
out flames, proud in his treasure, show his blazing form high
in the dark.’ These passages describe both ships and
dragon riding darkness, standing out against indistinct
backgrounds. The earth can and will swallow treasure,
bodies, entire villages even; the dark sea gulps down
sailors and their possessions; heaven itself swallows the
memorial smoke. What matters to the poem are the things
that stand out so strongly they can never be forgotten,
intimating that no treasure is truly valuable until it passes
into the ‘hoard’ of human memory.
Topic:
July: Beowulf (33 of 102), Read 96 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 05, 2001 01:33 PM
Other messages:
Life on earth is difficult and fleeting, but achieving military
glory at least makes it meaningful.
You can't escape your fate.
It is God who decides your fate.
Okay, okay, these might not be ideas that appeal to 21st
century readers, but I think the writer's contemporaries
would likely have found these messages in the story.
Kay, while I agree that revenge is not productive, I doubt
that the writer intended any such message. Revenge seems
to have been completely taken for granted by the people of
that time. They might have recognized that it would
contribute to a cycle of continuing violence, but I think they
would have felt derelict in their duty if they did not exact
revenge. (Of course, I could be wrong about that. Any other
thoughts?)
Dan, the last third of the poem when Beowulf faced the
dragon and his own death definitely touched me. In that
section at least, he was very human, with limitations like the
rest of us mortals. Earlier, he was too much of a generalized
heroic figure to appeal to my modern sensibilities.
Ruth, thanks for your comments. I didn't realize this lack of
description was typical of much very old literature.
I suppose what I like best about this poem is that it gives
me a bit of insight into the worldview of people who lived
1200-1400 years ago. In some ways, we are quite different,
but in our reaction to fear, loss, and death we haven't
changed that much at all.
Ann
Topic:
July: Beowulf (34 of 102), Read 97 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 05, 2001 01:40 PM
George,
Very interesting analysis. Do you think the writer of Beowulf
intentionally used this symbolism? If not, was it
subconscious, or was it something later readers have mined
from the poem?
Ann
Topic:
July: Beowulf (35 of 102), Read 107 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 05, 2001 02:14 PM
Ann, if I may, I think the story and poet provides these
'symbolisms' and intentionally. And I think HOW the poet got
his sources is the same way we get sources today. It isn't
exactly accurate to say subconscious. Perhaps
mass-conscious would be closer to our story of Beowulf and
the poet who wrote it.
One thing that has changed since this story was written is
that we have adopted the monster and the hero into one
creature is many of our present day stories. Like the 'hero'
in film noir or Hamlet or Quasi Moto. Like the marriage of
images from pagan times taken like contra band into
christian times, we now see the monster as a hero and as
ourselves.
Dottie, I spell Sasquatch like that. I saw a Sasquatch long
before I had ever read any versions of Beowulf mentioned
here. I felt quite at home reading about these creatures
years after actually seeing one of their cousins! I'm trying to
see if I can find the name of the academic who writes about
'bigfoot' thinking it was one of our cousins like the
neandrathal still hiding out there!
George really appreciated your rundown of the story-thanks
for taking the time!!!
I find this idea of memory and fame might be part of the
popularity that this book has gotten. After all, fame is bigger
than ever these days. My take on fame is that it has to do
wiith feeling god. God is 'famous' because it's everywhere all
the time and everybody knows of it. People driven to fame
are also trying to be like god, or close to god. A dangerous
idea indeed!
Candy
"If the world is saved, it will not be by old minds with new
programs but by new minds with no programs at all."
Daniel Quinn
Topic:
July: Beowulf (36 of 102), Read 101 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 05, 2001 02:39 PM
P.S.I can not under emphasize how much I dig the
cannibalism in here. Nothing like a chomping story.
Candy
"If the world is saved, it will not be by old minds with new
programs but by new minds with no programs at all."
Daniel Quinn
Topic:
July: Beowulf (37 of 102), Read 100 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 05, 2001 07:37 PM
Ann: Beowulf's death certainly strikes a chord--the hero falls
and only one of his warriors (as George points out) leaps to
help him finish the deed. In effect, Wiglaf is Beowulf helping
Hrothgar--what had come around before has come around
again.
As a reread Heaney's version, I am struck by the circular
action, the continual return of the same. There's been
heroism, yes, but there's also betrayal and war and death
and the cycle just goes on and on. We step into the epic of
Beowulf and we're tossed about by the flood, but it seems
nothing really changes. It is a fascinating story that
emphasizes the cycle of existence of those far-off times.
There's one thing that always gets me about this epic,
though: What's the deal with Hrothgar? It always seemed
odd that in a realm of heroism there could be one still in
power but powerless to fend off an evil stalking his hall.
Beowulf undertakes the task of helping Hrothgar--but why?
I don't believe it's just lust for adventure or renown;
Beowulf seems to be working towards an understanding
between the Geats and the Shieldings. That's how he
leaves Hrothgar--with assurances that now there is a bond
between their peoples. But the rancor this deed must place
within the breasts of Hrothgar's warriors--this has got to
hurt. This is seen in the young warrior questioning Beowulf's
heroic validity, but no one else in the epic seems concerned
about a man coming from across the sea to clean up their
own house.
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (38 of 102), Read 96 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 05, 2001 08:55 PM
Dan,
Good observation that time is circular in this narrative. We
tend to see time as an ascending line, but I think the idea of
progress is relatively new in human history.
I too was surprised that Hrothgar was described so
favorably when he obviously was incapable of protecting his
people from Grendel. Apparently, his excuse was that he
was old, although he had been a brave and very effective
ruler in his younger days. Beowulf suffered a similar
weakening of power by the end of the poem. At that stage,
Beowulf must have been pushing 70, since we are told that
he has ruled for 50 years--rather old for disposing of
dragons and monsters.
Why did Beowulf want to help Hrothgar? Good question. I
guess epic heros just go looking for the biggest challenge
they can find. :)
Ann
Topic:
July: Beowulf (39 of 102), Read 95 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 05, 2001 09:50 PM
Ann-
RE: futility of revenge
Is it possible the author was pointing out the futility of
revenge, even though he understood its importance in the
society? He seemed to be saying the people were trapped
in the loop.
George-
Thanks for that analysis - much to think about. What do you
make of the failure of the swords to do the required deed in
battle? Each time, Beowulf had to realize no magic would
help him, and that he had to come through for himself.
I did not see Beowulf as a seeker of fame and fortune. I
saw him as a youthful noble, interested in forging an
alliance between the Geats and the Danes. I'm sure there
was some willingness to be a hero, but I thought he sought
Grendel as a means of strengthening the alliance. He knew
he could help, so he did.
As to his final decision to battle the dragon - who else was
there to assume the responsibility? His people seemed to
expect heroics from him. He sensed his upcoming death, but
he accepted the challenge.
Beowulf didn't seem to let the glory go to his head, though
he did enjoy the momentary delight of fame. His ultimate
goal was to rule fairly and justly.
I want to re-read your notes. Thanks - that must have taken
a lot of time to put together.
K
Topic:
July: Beowulf (40 of 102), Read 98 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date:
Thursday, July 05, 2001 11:34 PM
I'm on page 50; liking this much more than when I read it in
college, perhaps due to the Heaney translation, which I
think is excellent. I do have a list of words I need to look up,
though, and I thought I had such a good vocabulary. I
hadn't realized that this was written long after the actual
events were supposed to have taken place; I wonder if it
was viewed as a "real" story or the equivalent of a fairy tale
by the author's contemporaries?
I think the author does tell us why Beowulf helps Hrothgar.
Remember the story about Beowulf's dear old dad, banished
after killing one of the Geat's enemies due to his
compatriots' fear of retribution, washing up in
Hrothgar-land? Hrothgar paid the blood price which allowed
Beowulf pere to return home (and, no doubt, beget
Beowulf). I'd be willing to bet this is a debt Beowulf would
have feld obligated to repay.
I think Ruth is right, these old-timey tales don't always point
out the connections/descriptions of this sort of thing - they
just tell it like it is and leave it to us to make the connection.
Damn the vocabulary, full read ahead!
Theresa
Topic:
July: Beowulf (41 of 102), Read 69 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Friday, July 06, 2001 07:17 AM
Kay--
I think it's hard to characterize a man 'keenenst to win fame'
(last line) and who says 'I bartered my life for fortune' as
someone who didn't seek fame and fortune... I think
Beowulf did seek those things, and in his time he would've
needed to. Treasure was the life blood of the king/warrior
relationship. However, many of the characters in 'Beowulf'
make concrete things of their greatness: Heorot, the
dragon's hoard, Grendel's trophies, etc., Beowulf's true
'treasure' was his fame, his reputation warded away
enemies from his people, his deeds were valuable to the
poets. Beowulf's hoard was a mobile mass of memories... as
long as he acted heroically, his hoard was impossible to
raid.
Topic:
July: Beowulf (42 of 102), Read 71 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Susan Strahan (tales@1001knights.com)
Date:
Friday, July 06, 2001 08:31 AM
The end of Beowulf seemed familiar to me as if I had read it
before; it had a resonance I recognized. It felt like the end
of Hamlet. The feeling and impact of the final scenes are the
same.
Here you have the hero, Beowulf, dying of a wound received
in single combat. He has one friend, one lone advocate who
kneels beside him. With the hero's death the kingdom is
thrown into confusion. Enemies will advance and conquer.
"The future belongs to Fotinbras."
~~Susan~~
"Then would you read a Sustaining Book, such as would
help and comfort a Wedged Bear in Great Tightness?"
---Winnie The Pooh
Topic:
July: Beowulf (43 of 102), Read 71 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Friday, July 06, 2001 08:33 AM
Time is a funny thing. Especially for us in industrial countries.
A thousand years ago is nothing. But because we look at
time in a certain limited way, we BELIEVE it is a long time
ago. I have to say, I giggle when I hear this described as an
old timey story. Mainly because it isn't just about the times it
was WRITTEN in. Ruth points out that this is from an oral
tradition. Actually, ALL our stories, even that scary writer
Danielle Steel works from stories from thousands of years
ago. Out of 20,000 years of story telling, one thousand
years ago is not that long ago. Nevermind that 'learning'
has been part of primate culture forever.
Haida Classical myths are hauntingly familiar devices and
plots to fairytales and fables. I really recommend if you are
interested in the oral traditions of story telling to check out
Robert Bringhursts book A Story As Sharp as a Knife.
I tend to look at supernatural beings in this story as born
from very real creatures.
I look at the monsters as other species. Really, quite literally
as 'cousins'. But that's just me hee hee. And somehow their
place in the story points out the tragedy of Beowulfs
myth/fame.
I am truly fascinated by this aspect of the 'fame' in this
story. I feel it means something to me, but I can't really
articulate WHAT. I am starting to feel that beneficial things
to it, but also terrible things to it.
Candy
"Writing is murder." Walker Percy
Topic:
July: Beowulf (44 of 102), Read 73 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Friday, July 06, 2001 08:37 AM
Susan!! I just read your post!!! In the words of Casablanca
"this could be the start of a beautiful friendship"
I am so haunted by Hamlet in this story. I keep thinking it's
because half my family is Danish or something and I am
being all obsessed with my shakespeare addiction!!! But I
am so glad you said this about the ending.
This also plays into my feeling about the 'fame' juxtaposed
next to the monsters and how Beowulf attained his fame.
From what is his glory?
But now I am getting all hyper and must go look at this book
some more! I am hyperventillating!
pant pant pant
Candy
"Writing is murder." Walker Percy
Topic:
July: Beowulf (45 of 102), Read 73 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Friday, July 06, 2001 09:46 AM
Well, I am looking at the intorduction and here is part of it:
Moregenerally, they(scholars)tried to establish the history
and geneology of the dynasties of Swedes and Geats and
Danes to which this poet makes constant allusion; and they
devoted themselves to a consideration of the world-view
behind this poem, asking to what extent(if at all) the newly
Christian undertaking of the world which operates in the
poet's mind displaces him from his imaginative at-homeness
in the world of his poem-a pagan Germanic society governed
by a heroic code of honour, one where the attainment of a
name for warrior-prowess among the living overwhelms any
concern about the soul's destiny in the afterlife.
I think this is a captivating issue because this is still where
we are today. Our countries are protecting them selves and
their iindustries and the public is struggling to see how
much is too much, and maintaining our "ideal life" among a
few versus the cost of the planet as a whole and the people
as a whole.
I may have been terribly overwhelmed by reading Waiting
For The Barbarians recently, but I can't help but feel that
Beowulf's constant sense of dread is insightful here. I see it
like the dread in Coetzee's book. His dread seems related to
his fame too. I'll se if I can find an example. It's like it is a
price he pays for it.
Candy
"Making food a commodity to be owned was one of the
great innovations of our culture. No other culture in history
has ever put food under lock and key-and putting it there is
the cornerstone of our economy, for if the food wasn't under
lock and key, who would work?"
Daniel Quinn
Topic:
July: Beowulf (46 of 102), Read 71 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, July 06, 2001 11:37 AM
Theresa: That sounds right--a debt being repaid. I'm
currently rereading the poem and I have yet to come across
that part. However, I did re-read Beowulf's response to
Unferth's taunts that Grendel will make short work of
Beowulf despite the boasting. However, Beowulf's closing
remarks to Unferth must have goaded Hrothgar's men:
The fact is, Unferth, if you were truly
as keen or courageous as you claim to be
Grendel would never have got away with
such unchecked atrocity, attacks on your king,
havoc in Heorot and horrors everywhere.
But he knows he need never be in dread
of your blade making a mizzle of his blood
or of vengeance arriving ever from this quarter--from the
Victory-Shieldings, the shoulderers of the spear.
He knows he can trample down you Danes
to his heart's content, humiliate and murder
without fear of reprisal. But he will find me different.
I will show him how Geats shape to kill
in the heat of battle.
Notice Beowulf starts by specifically citing Unferth as
ineffective but finishes his boast by citing the Danes as
incapable of dealing with the threat.
In a way, it is like a set-up for the bloodspilling of Danes by
the Heathobards as described by Beowulf later in the poem:
Danes are at the table, being entertained,
honoured guests in glittering regalia,
burnished ring-mail that was their hosts' birthright,
looted when the Heathobards could no longer wield
their weapons in the shield-clash, when they went down
with their beloved comrades and forfeited their lives.
Then an old spearman will speak while they are drinking,
having glimpsed some heirloom that brings alive
memories of the massacre; his mood will darken
and heart-stricken, in the stress of his emotion,
he will begin to test a young man's temper
and stir up trouble, starting like this:
'Now, my friend, don't you recognize
your father's sword, his favourite weapon, the one he wore
when he went out in his war-mask
to face the Danes on that final day?
After Wethergeld died and his men were doomed
the Shieldings quickly claimed the field,
and now here's a son of one or other
of those same killers coming through our hall
overbearing us, mouthing boasts,
and rigged in armour that by right is yours.'
And so he keeps on, recalling and accusing,
working things up with bitter words
until one of the lady's retainers lies
spattered in blood, split open
on his father's account.
I can see sons of the Geats one day taunting Danes about
how Beowulf had to come in and clean up Heorot because
no Dane was brave or skilled enough to do it for his
ring-giver. In the whirlpool of the poem, this would most
likely result in more bloodshed.
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (47 of 102), Read 70 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, July 06, 2001 03:18 PM
George-
You're right. But for me, Beowulf had more to him than a
simple desire for fame and fortune. At least he used those
for his people's good. He's not a total braggart, is he? I
found some nobility in him.
K
Topic:
July: Beowulf (48 of 102), Read 69 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Friday, July 06, 2001 05:47 PM
Kay, interesting comments. I was taking the fame thing a
little differently. I was seeing it more as lined up against the
gold. Like we all know the treasure is superficial or vain. It
seems to me that the honour(fame) being pointed out in
this story is partly not so much he was a braggart-but that
one group will deem it's actions as worthy-even at the cost
of another groups loss. Like his fame is as petty as the
dragons treasure...and yet a whole group of people has
based their 'worth' on something that is as flighty as 'gold'.
but I am just grappling here, don't mind me...
I was so surprised to read in the intro about Tolkien as the
definitive and righteous scholar on Beowulf!). I assume
thats the same as wrote The Hobbit(I have never read
Tolkien)
Candy
"Making food a commodity to be owned was one of the
great innovations of our culture. No other culture in history
has ever put food under lock and key-and putting it there is
the cornerstone of our economy, for if the food wasn't under
lock and key, who would work?"
Daniel Quinn
Topic:
July: Beowulf (49 of 102), Read 73 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 07, 2001 02:20 AM
On 7/6/01 5:47:46 PM, Candy Minx wrote:
>Kay, interesting comments. I
>was taking the fame thing a
>little differently. I was
>seeing it more as lined up
>against the gold. Like we all
>know the treasure is
>superficial or vain. It seems
>to me that the honour(fame)
>being pointed out in this
>story is partly not so much he
>was a braggart-but that one
>group will deem it's actions
>as worthy-even at the cost of
>another groups loss. Like his
>fame is as petty as the
>dragons treasure...and yet a
>whole group of people has
>based their 'worth' on
>something that is as flighty
>as 'gold'.
>
>but I am just grappling here,
>don't mind me...
>
>I was so surprised to read in the intro
>about Tolkien as the definitive and
>righteous scholar on Beowulf!). I assume
>thats the same as wrote The Hobbit(I
>have never read Tolkien
>
CANDY -- I agree with you ideas here -- sort of what I was
thinking -- and I have concluded that Beowulf was not so
much a braggart but had realized the equation of fame and
the actual god or material treasure -- that they are equally
fleeting except for as long as they are remembered.
And that second bit I put in bold -- WOW -- I feel SO much
better -- I thought I was the only person in the CR world
who had never read Tolkein! Not even when the girls were
in love with and memorized the Hobbit -- after it was filmed
and recorded -- shoot even I had it memorized and refer to
it but I've never read any Tolkein. Hmmm -- should we
remedy this? Shrug -- maybe when the time is right --
meanwhile I really DO feel better.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (50 of 102), Read 64 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@starband.net)
Date:
Saturday, July 07, 2001 07:24 AM
It didn't surprise me a bit that Tolkien was the preeminent
Beowulf scholar. In reading Heaney's translation, I felt like I
was reading resource material for The Ring Trilogy. It felt so
basic and primordial, like listening in on one of humanities'
first dreams.
Sherry
Topic:
July: Beowulf (51 of 102), Read 70 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 07, 2001 09:39 AM
While comparing the Heaney translation with the one from
an old English Lit. anthology, I stumbled across the
scribblings of some past college freshmen annotating the
poem during the lecture. This is the very "marginalia" that
Billy Collins professed in a poem posted a while back.
I'll post the original underlined quotes in bold and the
scribblings in italics up to the section where Beowulf
embarks to find G.'s mom. If nothing is underlined, I'll just
post the scribble--it's focus is easily discerned from the
commentary, I assure you. To the best of my ability, I'll
preserve the punctuation of the original...
Beow--> not Beowulf!!
funeral of Scyld Burial at sea
Building of the mead-hall "Herot"
grim spirit...rover of the borders...kin of Cain--> notice all
the kennings and epithets which refer to Grendel
thirty thanes-->*took 30 per night*
He attacks the hall again.
Thereafter is was easy to find the man who sought rest
for himself elsewhere--> Understatement. No one would
sleep in the hall!
vowed sacrifices at heathen temples-->Pagan custom
Christian passage "added on."
Healfdene-->Hrothgar
Hygelac-->Beowulf
14 Companions
Journey to Hrothgar
They meet the "Coast Guard." C.G. is impressed and leads B.
to H.
Boar-images shone over cheek-guards gold-adorned,
gleaming and fire-hardened--the war-minded boar held
guard over fierce men.--> Similar to Sutton Hoo
Travel to Hrothgar
Hrothgar gives permission to speak.
in his handgrip the strength of thirty men, a man famous
in battle-->super-natural power of B. (grip of 30 men)
I scorn to bear sword or broad shield, yellow wood, to the
battle-->Beowulf offers to kick Grendel's ass, wishes to fight
hand to hand.
the best of war-clothes that protects my breast, finest of
mailshirts-->Excellent armor to B.
Afterwards, I paid blood money to end the feud; over the
sea's back I sent to the Wylfings old treasures; he swore
oaths to me-->wergild
he belittles B.
Unferth accuses Beowulf of bragging
Beowulf is discussing his past sea adventures where he slew 9
monsters
Beowulf explains his adv.
Fate often saves an undoomed man when his courage is
good.-->very famous line
nine sea-monsters-->B kills 9 monsters
"Never before, since I could raise hand and shield, have I
entrusted to any man the great hall of the Danes, except
now to you."--> Hrothgar gives entrustment of Herot to
Beowulf
Therefore I will not put him to sleep with a sword, so take
away his life, though surely I might.--> again wants to fight
without sword.
may wise God, Holy Lord, assign glory-->Notice Christian
passage
Grendel comes
Grendel is accused of being at war with God
he suddenly seized a sleeping man, tore at him
ravenously, bit into his bone-locks, drank the blood from
his veins, swallowed huge morsels quickly; he had eaten
all of the lifeless one, feet and hands.-->freddy's here
They did not know when they entered the fight,
hardy-spirited warriors, and when they though th hew
him on every side, to seek his soul, that not any of the
best of irons on earth, no war-sword, would touch the
evil-doer; for with a charm he had made victory-weapons
useless, every sword-edge.-->Swords cannot hurt Grendel.
awful-->full of awe
The awful monster had lived to feel pain in his body, a
huge wound in his shoulder was exposed, his sinews
sprang apart, his bone-locks broke.-->B. hurts Grendel B.
rips his arm off
With your deeds you yourself have made sure that your
glory will be ever alive. May the Almighty reward you
with good--as just now he has done.-->Pagan idea of
immortality by Christian promise.
Hrothgar gives B. some gifts: Gold standard, sword, etc...
rim around the helmet's crown-->fits Suton Hoo helmet
and he commanded that gold be paid for the one whom in
his malice Grendel had killed-->wergild
H. gives Beowulf stuff: 8 horses, weapons
Scop's tale
Scop's tale
H. queen gives B. a ring, mail-shirt.
One of the beer drinkers, ripe and fated to die, lay down
to his hall-rest.-->foreshadow of Aeschere's death
Reference to Cain.
G. dies.
G. Mum is pissed
she had taken, in its gore, the famed hand-->G. Mom
retrieves G.'s hand
G. Mother kills a noble thane: Aeschere
That was not a good bargain, that on both sides they
had to pay with the lives of friends.-->understatement
Hrothgar is pissed.
H. tells B. about Grendel's homeland.
likeness of a woman-->Reference to Grendel in the past.
Him and his mothers.
H. asks B. to kill G. Mom.
It is better for a man to avenge his friend than much
mourn.-->This shows custom at that time.
I promise you this: she will not be lost under cover,
not in the earth's bosom nor in the mountain woods
nor at the bottom of the sea, go where she will. This
day have patience in every woe--as I expect you
to.-->B. will find G.'s mom.
he was weaker in swimming when death took
him-->understatement
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (52 of 102), Read 65 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
David Moody (davidmoody@prodigy.net)
Date:
Saturday, July 07, 2001 05:14 PM
"Freddy's here"????????????????????
David, amazed that the commentator didn't bring up
Baywatch
Topic:
July: Beowulf (53 of 102), Read 67 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date:
Sunday, July 08, 2001 02:05 AM
Finished this today. It's short, I might just give it a re-read
this week.
Candy, I'm shocked that you don't see the relevance of time
to this story. Although, I think you are talking about the
timelessness of story=plot, that old chestnut that there are
only ten plots in the world? Okay, though I'd argue in favor
on the importance of nuance on that one.
But time, as in chronological time that the story took place!
Did anyone else think the Christian moralizing that showed
up every so often, often mouthed by the pre-Christian
characters, seemed like an add-on; maybe to keep the
authorities happy? The language didn't "fit" somehow; but
it's so hard to tell in a translation.
And time, as in the narrative devices in fashion at the time
the story was written! Was the author of Beowulf like
Cervantes, who intentionally wrote Don Quixote in archaic
language? Come to think of it, Quixote could be a parody of
Beowulf, couldn't it?
And time, as in the mind-set of readers (or listeners - people
hung around and listened to even written stories being read
at that time, like we watch TV) at the time the story was
written? I think many aspects which seem puzzling to us are
because our context is so different than that of the intended
audience.
And, finally, time as an aspect, or character, of the story
itself. Note that the minstrels who perform after Grendel and
Mom are killed are deemed "traditional" well-versed in
"ancient" ways. And what finally kills Beowulf is a dragon
hiding an "ancient" treasure. And so on.
Time is a really, really big deal here, in many ways.
My favorite line was the one where Ulreth (? - the dude that
dissed Beowulf when he first arrived to slay Grendel) is
deemed well-respected for his wisdom and strength,
despite the fact that he had killed his brothers . . . minor
issues.
Theresa
Topic:
July: Beowulf (54 of 102), Read 63 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 08, 2001 10:53 AM
Interesting comments, Theresa. I agree with you that we
have to try to understand this story in the context of its own
time. Some things are universal, but much is culturally
specific. Culture, of course, changes not only with place, but
also time.
My conjecture about the Christian moralizing was that
Beowulf may have been written by a monk, given that few
people other than monks were literate at the time this was
written. That might explain his need to moralize, but you
could also be right about him trying to be politically correct,
but still describe the heroic exploits of pagan predecessors.
Ann
Topic:
July: Beowulf (55 of 102), Read 68 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 08, 2001 12:28 PM
David: Perhaps Baywatch wasn't around when this guy was
writing, but Nightmare on Elm Street was. I could look up the
possible dates when this was so (1985? 1986?) but I really
don't think it is all that important.
Theresa: Interesting you should bring up Ulferth slaying his
brother. Evidently, the custom at the time for murder
(accidental or deliberate--it didn't matter) was either paying
what the slain person was worth ("wergild") or vengeance.
The poet almost revels in the gray areas of this custom by
presenting first the honorable Brother-killer Ulferth (who
would he pay wergild to--himself? How could he revenge his
brother's death?) and, more interesting, the case of the
accidental death of Hrethel's son (Hydelac's older brother):
"For the eldest, Herebeald, an unexpected
deathbed was laid out, through a brother's doing,
when Haethcyn bent his horn-tipped bow
and loosed the arrow that destroyed his life.
He shot wide and buried a shaft
in the flesh and blood of his own brother.
That offence was beyond redress, a wrongfooting
of the heart's affections; for who could avenge
the prince's life or pay his death-price?
It was like the misery felt by an old man
who has lived to see his son's body
swing on the gallows. He begins to keen
and weep for his boy, watching the raven
gloat where he hangs: he can be of no help.
The wisdom of age is worthless to him.
Morning after morning, he wakes to remember
that his child is gone; he has no interest
in living on until another heir
is born in the hall, now that his first-born
has entered death's dominion forever.
Also, let's remember the sin for which Cain and Cain's
descendants (Grendel, in this poem) are eternally punished:
fratricide. Ulferth, Haethcyn, Grendel--all birds of a feather
but each flying in widely different directions.
Isn't that how Beowulf sums himself up most of the time?
"Yes, but I'm different."
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (56 of 102), Read 69 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 08, 2001 06:44 PM
Thanks for quoting that part of the poem, Dan. That section
is really ageless. He could be describing a parent's grief at
any time in any place.
Ann
Topic:
July: Beowulf (57 of 102), Read 57 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Monday, July 09, 2001 10:17 AM
Ann, thanks for bringing up the word ageless! That is what I
mean about time in this story as being not THE POINT> It
may beinteresting to imagine the middle ages, but it's got
nothing to do with the value of this story.
Dan, I laughed like crazy get out at those margins, I thought
you were going to say that was you or something! I died at
"Freddys here" oh my god, priceless.
Dottie, I don't know why I have read Tolkien, I tried when I
was a kid but there wasn't evnough sex and violence I
guess. Maybe I'm ready for dwarfs and touchy feely
woodlanmd creatures now...????
I think that Cervantes was making a parody and the hero
quest for sure with Don Quitxe!!
love and peace and dwarves
Candy
"Making food a commodity to be owned was one of the
great innovations of our culture. No other culture in history
has ever put food under lock and key-and putting it there is
the cornerstone of our economy, for if the food wasn't under
lock and key, who would work?"
Daniel Quinn
Topic:
July: Beowulf (58 of 102), Read 50 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Monday, July 09, 2001 01:32 PM
I'm going to move the discussion over to the left to make it
a bit more readable. Candy and Dottie, I have never read
Tolkein either. In fact I never even tried. Do you think that
his books are more popular with boys than girls? In my
case, I never cared for fantasy when I was young. I find it
more interesting now.
Ann
Topic:
July: Beowulf (59 of 102), Read 50 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Monday, July 09, 2001 01:46 PM
Hmm, I don't know if he is more popular with boys or not. My
sister LOVED Tolkien. I figure I will read him one day. Just
when I was in school he was super trendy, and for
whatever reason I rejected that trend while absorbing
others. I don't know why. I have one friend who that is his
favourite writer and he won't read anybody else! Okay I got
him to read a spy novel this year!
I got right into some fantasy back then all these dragon
books. I don't know it seems really weird right now that I
never read these. I didn't read Narnia though until I was 22.
I really think it was the lack of sex and violence, no really! I
was into readign John D MacDonalds Travis McGee and Terry
Southern and Tom Robbins! My parents racy books!!!
"Making food a commodity to be owned was one of the
great innovations of our culture. No other culture in history
has ever put food under lock and key-and putting it there is
the cornerstone of our economy, for if the food wasn't under
lock and key, who would work?"
Daniel Quinn
Topic:
July: Beowulf (60 of 102), Read 53 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, July 09, 2001 03:54 PM
Candy: I first read Tolkien's triology when I was nearing 30
and it blew me away. It was a fantasy without the baggage
one tends to associate with fantasies. Cute woodland
creatures do not exist in Tolkien; a realm so real yet so
replete with evil does. It is an amazing work and well worth
looking into.
As for Cervantes, he was poking at the chansons de geste
such as the King Arthur tales rather than Beowulf. I'm certain
Cervantes would have never read Beowulf, but was
probably familiar with El Cid, a Spanish epic written a few
centuries after Beowulf.
And I swear to God, Candy, that those marginalia are not
my own. I never had the urge to paraphrase the main action
in the margin like that guy or gal. I could read that Beowulf
tore Grendel's arm off. I might have underlined the passage,
but I would never have written "B. tears G.'s arm off" on the
side. That's beyond tacky.
Though I admit I like "Here's Freddy" and "H. is pissed."
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (61 of 102), Read 50 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Monday, July 09, 2001 04:01 PM
Yeah but -- DAN!!!!!! Heaney did that same thing basically
with those little margin asides. I kind of thought -- "oh, gee,
I couldn't get this from reading the poem itself? yeah, right"
Maybe I was just out of sorts generally the first time
through old Beowulf but I can promise you I'll be back again
now that I have the second pass under my belt so to speak.
And Grendel -- don't get me started -- I'm trying to wait till
the 15th but ooooh -- it is SO hard -- I LIKE that monster
and can't wait to hear the talk on THAT one!
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (62 of 102), Read 54 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Monday, July 09, 2001 04:56 PM
I forgot to add, that I found this a breeze to get into and
read!
Hey Dan, I am trying to see if I have a copy around here,
and EVERYONE I know my sister especially has told me I will
love Tolkien. I have a feeling I didn't read it because I found
it confusing. When I was young I had a really hard time
following some stories. I am glad that it still is a good story
for adults! Thanks, one of these days!
Sorry about that Cervantes thing. I really don't know about
what he read, but I am of the opinion he was reacting and
satirizing hero-quests. I do believe very heartily that the
stories we have kicking around like King Arthur and
Beowulf(which I found to be a granddaddy of King Arthur
style storytelling)are from a long chain of stories we have
been retelling and retelling. Some more referentially than
others.
Candy
"Making food a commodity to be owned was one of the
great innovations of our culture. No other culture in history
has ever put food under lock and key-and putting it there is
the cornerstone of our economy, for if the food wasn't under
lock and key, who would work?"
Daniel Quinn
Topic:
July: Beowulf (63 of 102), Read 55 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Monday, July 09, 2001 04:58 PM
And between pages 22 and 39 I counted at least eleven
references to boasting, fame and reputation!!!
I have been very moved by the Hrothgar speech about self,
and power and fame! and to not get that confused with
what is more long lasting...
Candy
"Making food a commodity to be owned was one of the
great innovations of our culture. No other culture in history
has ever put food under lock and key-and putting it there is
the cornerstone of our economy, for if the food wasn't under
lock and key, who would work?"
Daniel Quinn
Topic:
July: Beowulf (64 of 102), Read 49 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Monday, July 09, 2001 11:45 PM
Something I am thinking of here ...there is the idea of fame
being a power, a product as much as pride of possesions.
The dragon has his hoard and Beowulf is to be careful of
holding his fame too close to his heart. I was thinking how
GENEROUS this poem is, why is it so long? And then I was
thinking how it's so so wordy. It's like the words are going
wildly from the narrator. I don't know why exactly but this
seems related....more ina bit...
Candy
"Making food a commodity to be owned was one of the
great innovations of our culture. No other culture in history
has ever put food under lock and key-and putting it there is
the cornerstone of our economy, for if the food wasn't under
lock and key, who would work?"
Daniel Quinn
Topic:
July: Beowulf (65 of 102), Read 57 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 10, 2001 12:56 AM
Candy -- wasn't this an "entertainment" or based on
"entertainments" from the long oral telling and retelling of
the old stories which you mentioned above -- and so it
imitated the repetitiveness of the oral traditions? I loved
your line up there BTW -- "Some more referentially than
others."
We tell them in varying degrees of reference and varying
degrees of reverence. The keeping of the stories in memory
whether before they became written or after was part of
the fame -- holding on to what had happened but also
staving off the unknowns of the afterlife.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (66 of 102), Read 60 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Bonnie Mots (bmots@hotmail.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 10, 2001 01:41 AM
I read Heaney's Beowulf a few months ago and I am still
fascinated about how much there is to find out about the
work itself, and as much as is possible, the time in which it
was first orally spoken by the scops, then written. It could
take a lifetime of fascinating exploration and speculations!
Some of my inquiries led me to a study of the Norse
Gods...not a scholarly study, but just rambling along. One of
the tomes I browsed through emphasized the origins of the
name Beowulf itself...the origins was in the name for the
Bear. (Animal) Warriors dressed as bears and other animals
to combat the enemy...in fact, they went "berserk" (origin of
that word also has to do with bears) in an ecstatic frenzy. I
read also that Warriors did not much care about this
life...they knew they would get to Valhalla if they were
brave and ferocious enough. Some remnants of stylized
bear images were found in the Sutton Hoo fragments, some
shield decorations, etc. I guess my rambling point is, a study
of Beowulf can take you into the origins of myths (was
Beowulf performing a traditional archetypal initiation in
slaying Grendl?), cultural anthropology and archaeology,
even linguistics, the works! Some have speculated that the
time Beowulf was told (and later written) was a time of the
changing over from paganism to Christianity as the various
tribes conquested and melded, that is fascinating too.
But what amazes me is how relevant the Beowulf story is
still today...it doesn't seem like the human race has
advanced a heck of a lot since the dark ages. The major
themes of greed and conquest are still very much with us.
Others, in this thread have said as much, and I agree.
Kudos to all, I am enjoying everyone's responses here and
learning a lot more.
Bonnie
Topic:
July: Beowulf (67 of 102), Read 60 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 10, 2001 02:33 AM
Bonnie -- it sounds like you do what many here do -- get
really wrapped up in their reading and read related things
and start exploring side tracks -- albeit they ARE related
sidetracks. This is my first encounter with Beowulf -- if I ever
heard any comment or mention of it or even read anything
of it I had lost it long ago. I am learning a great deal from
those who have studied and read it previously but for me
the connections to other familiar and long-standing -- dare I
say always existing -- stories and themes holds fascination.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (68 of 102), Read 62 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 10, 2001 07:48 AM
HI!!! Yes, I am moved by how sad it is that we have the
same delusions and values about money and success and
fame today as we did then. (in my opinion it's because our
economy is the same then as now)
I ma still trying to think how I can describe this sense of
generosity with the words. I see what you mean, but
somehow this is longer than it seems logical for it to be
except I feel it is about "giving away". the words the story
represent generousity of spirit in story telling to me, to
counter the themes of "hoarding"(money or power) in the
story.
I want to add to kays and Anns comments, that I don't see
Beowulf as conceited or purely boastful. No, I think he is
learning and part of his learnign is to see how fame has
been incorporated as a product in his society like gold, and
how dangerous it is to the soul. He is average like anyone,
not conceited, but confident....and it's a narrow path to
tread.
Candy
"Making food a commodity to be owned was one of the
great innovations of our culture. No other culture in history
has ever put food under lock and key-and putting it there is
the cornerstone of our economy, for if the food wasn't under
lock and key, who would work?"
Daniel Quinn
Topic:
July: Beowulf (69 of 102), Read 64 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 10, 2001 10:00 AM
Candy: For the record, I stated that Tolkien blew me away.
In no fashion did I ever project your possible future feelings
for the work. You're too complex for me to ever judge.
Bonnie: Excellent commentary and any input you have is
certainly welcome in the future. I like what you said about
the relevance of Beowulf to modern times.
I'm reminded of when all business men were digging Sun
Tzu's Art of War, mining it for metaphors on how to tackle
business (think of the Kirk Douglas character in Wall Street).
Beowulf could also be mined for material in a similar fashion:
If you seek the leadership, do deeds which get you noticed
and produce tangible results. Make sure you're generous to
your fellows who will serve you when you become leader;
you want to buy their loyalty before you're the CEO.
Of course, the merger with the fire worm did not go so well
for the Geat CEO. His employees refused to back him when
the stock got too hot and he got burned...
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (70 of 102), Read 61 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 10, 2001 10:07 AM
Dottie: For me, Heaney's marginalia is designed to facilitate
finding passages and not to explain the action. I see it as
the same when some versions of the Bible have a little
italicized blurb (Jesus kicks ass in the temple portico) at the
top of the page to help readers locate specific passages.
I just thought the marginalia writer I quoted was funny in
that he was underlining passages and writing a translation
along the margin to ensure he understood what was
happening. Then again, come to think of it, he may have
been making annotations so that when he returned later to
study he could easily find the specific passage where
Hrothgar is pissed at having to face Grendel's mother now
after finally getting rid of Grendel...
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (71 of 102), Read 62 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 10, 2001 10:24 AM
hee hee.Dan, Well, I don't think ANYBODY has ever called
me complex before. Dumb blonde, but not complex.
I am sorry if my posts are too confusing. I get carried away
and ramble too much.
I won't dis you if I ever get to reading Tolkien...I really
meant my sister and friends think I would love his stuff.
I enjoyed thinking of The Art of War comparred to Beowulf,
very funny and very true. There is so much to this that holds
up to our cults of celebrity and personalities from this story
to today. It seems even with an old story like this, we never
seem to learn!
Candy
"Making food a commodity to be owned was one of the
great innovations of our culture. No other culture in history
has ever put food under lock and key-and putting it there is
the cornerstone of our economy, for if the food wasn't under
lock and key, who would work?"
Daniel Quinn
Topic:
July: Beowulf (72 of 102), Read 53 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 10, 2001 11:50 AM
Okay -- Dan -- but somehow those little margin notes
seemed just so much extra -- maybe it's because I try not to
read the notes unless I have to but these notes were right
there and how could I not read them {G}
Funny you bring up Art of War -- my own thinking here was
they could have been giving the pre-Machiavelli outline for
The Prince. I picked up a lot of things very much relative to
Machiavelli's "how-to" manual. forgot to mention that -- I
think I haven't been saying what I should here after
finishing my second run at old Beowulf.
I WILL say that I feel much better and more comfy with this
now and that I would NEVER have read it once (let alone
twice in two weeks or so) if I weren't sharing the experience
with CC folks here.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (73 of 102), Read 54 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 10, 2001 03:06 PM
Bonnie,
Welcome to Classics Corner! I enjoyed your post. You
mentioned that the Norse warriors didn't worry too much
about this world because they believed they would go
straight to Valhalla if they fought bravely and died. It
reminded me of something I heard last week about the
Moslem suicide bombers in Israel. Not only are they
promised that they will go instantly to heaven, but they are
also told they will get 72 virgins there -that seems like a lot
for any one person, but I guess we are talking about
eternity. At any rate, some things really haven't changed
much, have they?
Candy, I think you are right to zero in on the importance of
fame to Beowulf and his contemporaries. You mentioned
once that it was their attempt to be like God. I think that is
true in the sense that fame gives a person a bit of
immortality. Of course, it is also easier to be fearless in
battle if you think you will gain immediate entrance to either
Valhalla, or the Christian heaven which the author of
Beowulf probably had in mind. I have tried, but I don't really
believe in an afterlife, which is probably why these heroic
attempts to wrestle with monsters and dragons seem
foreign to me. I would just move away rather than subject
myself to so much risk :)
Dottie and Dan, I liked the marginalia in this version of
Beowulf. Sometimes it was very obvious, Dottie, but other
times it really clued me in on what was going on. I need all
the help I can get.
Ann
Topic:
July: Beowulf (74 of 102), Read 53 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 10, 2001 04:15 PM
Ann -- I have reexamined some of the margin notes and I
think you are right -- it was just those obvious ones that
convinced me that I was being considered dim-witted {G}.
ALSO -- I just for some reason this evening suddenly
realized that those Frisians who along with the Franks were
foreseen as trouble in future are the same Frisians who still
occupy the islands and northernmost province of Nederlands
-- why had that bit of info slipped by as I read this -- slipped
by not just ONCE -- twice, for goodness sake. I seem to be
out of the loop with this book -- heh.
As I went back and read the bits on the Frisians I took note
of some of my own little marks -- some of them tie into
Grendel so will leave those until a later post.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (75 of 102), Read 54 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 10, 2001 05:02 PM
Ann, I agree that the idea of immortality ties into god with
fame. But some "god"is also omnipotent. Everywhere at
once, which is a lot like celebrity. and the 'contact high' that
fame gives, probably why people swarm famous people to
get an autograph. Wanting to get in "the prescence" of
someone-like wanting to experience god.
I am very surprised this story hasn't been made into a
movie! Or at least a movie I have heard of. I could really see
this being liek a rough and tumble fantasy version of
Gladiator!
Candy
"Making food a commodity to be owned was one of the
great innovations of our culture. No other culture in history
has ever put food under lock and key-and putting it there is
the cornerstone of our economy, for if the food wasn't under
lock and key, who would work?"
Daniel Quinn
Topic:
July: Beowulf (76 of 102), Read 55 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Felix Miller (felix3rd@bellsouth.net)
Date:
Tuesday, July 10, 2001 08:23 PM
I am part way through this poem, which I read too many
years ago to really remember in detail. Depressing how
many books, stories, poems I can now say that about.
Maybe there is only so much capacity for storage in the
human brain.
I am struck with the similarities with the Iliad and the
Odyssey. Perhaps it is the oral recitation thing, with so many
stock phrases. Also the boasting, so at odds with our
post-victorian discomfort with blowing our own horn.
Big-time sports has overcome this limitation. Exulting over
your vanquished foe is par for the course, as when he of the
Slavic name won Wimbledon. More so, in fact, when he won
earlier matches and shucked off his shirt and emitted a
Tarzan yell. At WIMBELDON! How times and manners
crumble.
I am also reminded of Njal's Saga a dreary Icelandic blending
of Hatfield and McCoy fueding with extravagant boasting.
This work caused me to abandon my English major in
college.
Beowulf is much better than Njal, and I am a major Iliad and
Odyssey fan.
Has anybody encountered Sohrab and Rustum, a Victorian
re-casting of a Persian saga by Matthew Arnold. Good stuff,
I think.
Greetings from north of the river,
Felix Miller
...I'll take a beer from the 'frigerator and go sit out in the
yard/And with a cold one in my hand, I'm gonna bite down and
swallow hard -No Time to Cry-Iris DeMent.
Topic:
July: Beowulf (77 of 102), Read 56 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 10, 2001 08:32 PM
Felix,
Great comments about the resurrection of the tradition of
boasting. :)
Ann
Topic:
July: Beowulf (78 of 102), Read 57 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Bonnie Mots (bmots@hotmail.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 10, 2001 09:31 PM
Ann, Well, that should be a caution to the 72 virgins to make
much of their eternal time! I laugh, irreverently!
Let's see if copy and paste works here. Hurrah, it does!
Some notes gleaned: From my meandering readings, I came
across the suggestion that Beowulf. was most likely
transcribed by monks from storytellers, I would suppose
much like the Grimms' brothers recorded German folk tales.
Every region has these legends and stories (think of some
of our legends…Rip Van Winkle, Bigfoot, lots of Appalachian
tales), but how and why B. survived from those early times
is nothng short of miraculous. Some scholars speculate that
there were more than one or two transcribers because of
the variations in the writing. (It makes you wonder which
version of B. will survive ages and ages hence when what
we know now has been covered up by some cataclysmic
event, doesn't it?!)
But of great importance are the known historical events of
the time the poem was written. From the 8th thru the 11th
c., England was constantly invaded by the Vikings. B. was
composed during the age of the Viking invasions. Many of
the invaders limited themselves to coastal raids, but others
had a more lasting impact. In 866 the Viking leader, Ivan the
Boneless, completely overran northern England. His forces
moved inland and settled down in the region. These Vikings
had a strong influence on the English society of the time,
and a blending of northern European cultures took place. In
878 the Anglo-Saxon leader Alfred the Great defeated a
force of Danes and concluded the Peace of Wedmore, a
treaty that both recognized his authority over one region
(Wessex) and acknowledged Danish control over a broad
area to the east and north of the Thames River known as
the Danelaw. Danish customs and laws became firmly
embedded in the Danelaw, leaving a lasting imprint on
English culture.
As the oldest surviving northern European epic, Beowulf
tells the story of a hero while so doing recounts a people's
history and/or traditions, capturing the spirit of the times.
But according to another source, there was at first a far less
serious dimension to the poem; it provided entertainment.
No television, no computers, no movies, people sat around
their gathering places, a campfire, a mead hall, a pub(!)
listening to a Scop - pronounced shope - who was a singer
or maker of poems. In witnessing the scop's performance,
the early residents of England celebrated the hero's
qualities of bravery and loyalty and also relaxed after a hard
day of work as tradesmen. Beowulf was appreciated for its
entertainment value, it also served the purpose of creating
a strong value system and a code for the construction of a
balanced government.
Beowulf seems to straddle two worlds: it bridges the violent
warrior culture that it celebrates and the Christian culture
that was, at the time of its composition, displacing the
earlier era. The introduction of Christianity to the British
Isles took place in 597 when St. Augustine and a group of
monks arrived in England by way of Ireland. (Aha, this is
how the Irish saved civilization!) Christianity was thriving in
England in the early eighth century, the time of the poem's
creation. By the late tenth century, the date of the Beowulf
manuscript, Christianity was well established in England.
The poem draws heavily on Old Testament elements.
Grendel is a curious mix of folk legend with Old Testament
overtones. Unhappy outcast! Condemned as kin of Cain
who slew his brother, from him sprang all bad breeds, trolls
and elves and monsters and giants who strove with God.
These can all be traced back to Norse mythology. In short, a
melding which shows how one value system, for instance,
the Warrior clan led by a brave, violent leader, was being
replaced by another leader who was less monstrous…and
the people he represented became obedient to a
benevolent higher power who rewards virtue, forgiveness
and honesty.
But looking back over the events in British history since the
time of Beowulf, particularly during the Middle Ages, it seems
hard to believe they were a "kinder, gentler, people." What
was done in the name of Christianity affords a pretty bleak
and grim view, in my estimation, and not only in Britain, here
too, and worldwide.
Bonnie, who reads and reads and ponders and ponders!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (79 of 102), Read 58 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 11, 2001 12:56 AM
Thank you so much for these wonderfully brimming posts on
Beowulf, Bonnie.
As I said -- my first encounter as far as my leaky brain can
recall -- and on the first run through I came back
complaining that it just underwhelmed me and left me very
flat. I think that was my doing not the poem's now that I
have reread it.
I had been wondering about the time frame here -- I think
the indication in the intro was that there are theories
ranging across several centuries -- but from the info you
share here, I would see Beowulf as having a Christian
"gloss" added if the manuscript were written earlier than
the late tenth century your info indicates but if that later
date is true, I would hold that with Christianity
well-established that the poem would be from a Christian
viewpoint and the pagan aspects would be played down --
thus the apologetic tone when they say Hrothgar's men
have gone to the old gods during the war with Grendel.
All the insights gathered here are helping also -- which is
one of the reasons I stayed around this place when I first
wandered in. Let me say again how good it is that you have
come in and joined us -- we also love to read and read and
ponder and ponder and enjoy talking with others who do
that, too.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (80 of 102), Read 32 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Edd Houghton (eddh@pacbell.net)
Date:
Wednesday, July 11, 2001 02:00 AM
CANDY
The BEOWULF and GRENDEL have been the subject of a
couple of recent movies. One was with Antonio Banderas (of
all people) and was called THE THIRTEENTH WARRIOR. I
think the screen-play was actually the work of one of the
popular writers; maybe Michael Crichton or Stephen King.
Another version, I saw just a couple of days ago on a video
that my son brought in. It had Christopher Lambert as the
Beowulf type character. Sorry, can't remember the name.
Maybe when my son wakes up, he'll remember.
EDD
Topic:
July: Beowulf (81 of 102), Read 32 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Bonnie Mots (bmots@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 11, 2001 02:35 AM
Thanks for your kind words. When I first dipped into
Beowulf, I had much the same reaction you did, and I never
expected to be caught up in it as much as I have. For one
thing, I never read any Norse mythology at all, nor much
about that period of history either. Heaney's skills swept me
in and beyond!
As for the time of the writing of the original manuscript, no
one seems to know for certain. The only existing manuscript
is in the British Museum. Some believe it is probably a copy
of a copy, and who knows before that?!
What we do have came into the possession of Sir Robert
Cotton who lived 1571 to 1631. I want to find out more
about him...does anyone know anything about him? In 1731
the manuscript was damaged in a fire and was moved,
"together with the rest of the Cotton collection, from
Ashburnham House to the British Museum." The first page of
it, illustrated in the book I cite below, shows charred
markings that miraculously seem to stop just short of the
text itself. Amazing!
The book I am finding to be a treasure trove, with no
monster sitting atop it, is BEOWULF, edited by Joseph F.
Tuso. It is a Norton Critical edition, with backgrounds and
sources and criticism, and with the Donaldson translation in
prose, not poetry. Naturally, I got it from Amazon dot com
some months ago!
Bonnie
Topic:
July: Beowulf (82 of 102), Read 30 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 11, 2001 04:28 AM
Interesting to know this about the video versions based on
Beowulf, EDD, thanks.
Bonnie -- I may not get so involved as you seem to have
done with the Norse history and so on but this last volume
does indeed hold appeal -- I find myself wanting to explore
another or other translation/s of this work -- maybe just to
read a version which if I hadn't managed to somehow evade
or avoid I would most likely have encountered before
Heaney's version appeared on the scene.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (83 of 102), Read 28 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 11, 2001 01:25 PM
Thanks for background information. It's very interesting. I
am sitting here trying to imagine why someone would be
called "Ivan the Boneless." It's not a pretty sight.
I have bought the Norton Critical Edition for several of the
books we have read here. I like all the additional material
that comes with them.
Ann
Topic:
July: Beowulf (84 of 102), Read 28 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 11, 2001 02:34 PM
Edd, I remember seeing the trailers for The Thirteenth
Warrior a couple of years ago. At first I was very excited to
see it, and then it only staying in the theatres for a bout a
week around here. And it looked lousy when ads came on tv
for it.I had no idea from the trailers that it was inspired by
or about Beowulf. Now see, I think it should be called
"Beowulf" and made as is from the book!!! I think I will
check it out some day though. I wonder if there are
monsters and dragons in it?
Thanks for all the background, god the Vikings were such
rapers and pillagers, I am ashamed of my great great great
etc grandparents!
Candy
"Making food a commodity to be owned was one of the
great innovations of our culture. No other culture in history
has ever put food under lock and key-and putting it there is
the cornerstone of our economy, for if the food wasn't under
lock and key, who would work?"
Daniel Quinn
Topic:
July: Beowulf (85 of 102), Read 24 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 11, 2001 06:46 PM
Candy: It's actually more convoluted than that. The 13th
Warrior is loosely based on Michael Crichton's novel Eaters of
the Dead, which I highly recommend to anyone interested in
a "realistic" depiction of what may have really transpired at
Hrothgar to generate the Beowulf legend.
Eaters of the Dead has a Persian 1st-person narrator who is
sent to the north as an ambassador. He encounters a team
of warriors--one with a name and attitude very much like
our beloved Beowulf--who take him north to help a village
under siege by monsters. Crichton's novel excels in
depicting accurate Germanic history and creating a
fascinating web. In fact, with the fake footnotes noting
aspects of the so-called document being translated, the
story becomes so historical at some times that you begin to
believe that Crichton is translating an actual travel
document from the 9th century.
As a bonus, Crichton depicts the Grendel race as
Neanderthals who have not yet gone extinct. For me, this is
a clever device and highly provocative. It boggled my mind
when I first read it. My wife, a huge Auel fan, also found
Crichton's depiction historically based yet endlessly
fascinating. If you must read one Crichton novel this year,
read Eaters of the Dead.
The film of Eaters of the Dead is horrid. First of all, The 13th
Warrior never openly acknowledges the Beowulf-connection,
though the leader is named "Bee-ow" or something and the
main action ends with a "fire worm." Secondly, the film never
notes that the race being fought are Neanderthal as
Crichton posits in his novel. While it is a decent movie, it
really makes no real sense unless you have read Eaters of
the Dead as well as Beowulf.
There's also a SF film called Beowulf that has just been
released. Guess what? Grendel is an alien. I have not had
the courage to watch it. I probably never will.
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (86 of 102), Read 26 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 11, 2001 06:50 PM
72 Virgins? Is that all you get for blowing yourself up? Why
70 plus 2? What is the significance of this number?
Actually, it should be however many infidels you took with
you. Can't have a guy killing 200 getting the same share as
a schmuck whose death toll is a measly 24, now can you?
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (87 of 102), Read 28 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 11, 2001 06:59 PM
Oh this is so interesting to me Daniel!!! I'm trying to
remember when I last read a Crigton novel, it was a really
really long time ago. this excites me I am so going to pick
this one up. and I bet I can find it no prob second hand!
I mentioned much earlier in this thread that I had seen a
Sasquatch when I was growing up in the pacific northwest.
and I must try to find the scholars name that wrote about
Beowulf and Sasquatches and Neandrathals. This is not as
far out as it may seem. I was sort of disappointed no one
had responded to this earlier post I had made. There is
definately a small group of people, myself included, that see
Beowulf as an old story connected to killing off our "cousins"
as I called them earlier. It is likely that some of our stories
have gotten slightly changed around to make the
"agricultural" animals look a little like they were at risk from
the Neandrathals(who may have cultivated some plants as
well)...monsters who terrorize humans and eat them often
represent nature and other cultures who reject "civilization"
aaaahhh it's mark Hall. He's an American scholar who
collects accounts of 'sightings'. Does your wife know of him?
I think he believes that some of these giant stories are left
over from when we might have been killing off neandrathals
and non-farmers among us or our neighbours. I don't
know...thought I'd throw it out there.
and with a clever twist christians added this 'Cain' aspect as
a kind of 'propaganda heh heh...
Candy
"Making food a commodity to be owned was one of the
great innovations of our culture. No other culture in history
has ever put food under lock and key-and putting it there is
the cornerstone of our economy, for if the food wasn't under
lock and key, who would work?"
Daniel Quinn
Topic:
July: Beowulf (88 of 102), Read 29 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 11, 2001 07:00 PM
well, I'll never find Crighton at the library iof I continue to
spell his name so crazy!!\
"Making food a commodity to be owned was one of the
great innovations of our culture. No other culture in history
has ever put food under lock and key-and putting it there is
the cornerstone of our economy, for if the food wasn't under
lock and key, who would work?"
Daniel Quinn
Topic:
July: Beowulf (89 of 102), Read 31 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 11, 2001 07:13 PM
Candy: I'm sorry, I must have missed that thread. If the
Classic Corner people don't mind, I'd like the ask two
questions:
(1) Did you really see Bigfoot?
and
(2) Did he/she/it smell really bad?
By the way, my wife only reads Auel for the storytelling and
character development. As far as I know, she hasn't made a
Sasquatch connection yet.
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (90 of 102), Read 32 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 11, 2001 07:28 PM
heh heh. Um it's up there in this very thread some where. I
know my posts are so long sometimes and it's not easy to
read them or follow my trains of thought. Who can follow a
runaway train anyway!
But the Sasquatch was about 50 feet away, so from there it
didn't smell. But it was very tall. Like 7 feet tall. My friend
Debbie Tohmski and I saw between Kitimat and Terrace B.C.
if you have map there. Many stories abound of the Natives
up there of Bigfoot. There are some hot springs there and a
few people have claimed to see them there. Seems they like
a hot bath just like the reast of us.
No, I don't think Auel has Bigfoot in her books, ha ha. But I
thought your wife might have read her for the culture
between tribes etc.
I believe in that same past post I said that a change that
has happened in our stories of monsters is reflected in film
noir and in kids cartoons like Disney that hte monster has
become more "good". Just like film noir where the hero is an
anti-hero....sometimes also on the "bad" side of morals or
tracks. And our monsters like Quasi Moto and heros like
Hamlet are good and bad. In Beowulf the monster is
separated from the hero...but not so much in some ways.
Now we have brought the dark and the light closer
together. Grendal and Beowulf are the reflections of each
other, I believe that is part of the lesson in story. Nowadays
we see this more obviously.
Candy
"If elections worked we'd outlaw them" Utah Philips
Topic:
July: Beowulf (91 of 102), Read 27 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 11, 2001 07:37 PM
Dan, my post of Sasquatch earlier was #35 in response to
Dotties post #26 when she said she was thinking of
"Saskwatch" when she read about Grendel. Just in case you
want to read those references.
It was right after the lovely posts of Ann and Kay and
George, so I felt bad putting in my crazy two cents here
after such lustrous clear posts as theirs, but I did anyway. i
figured I was so out of it, that people were ignoring my
ideas on this poem. I don't blame anyone for that heh heh. I
get on my tears...
Candy
"If elections worked we'd outlaw them" Utah Philips
Topic:
July: Beowulf (92 of 102), Read 28 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Bonnie Mots (bmots@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 11, 2001 10:06 PM
Candy, want to say that being new here, and not knowing
people well enough to connect names with posts in replies
-- heck, I am still stumbling and fumbling around just
navigating -- I did think about your earlier comments about
our more recent legendary characters, and sort of, but not
well, incorporated that thought into an earlier post about
folk heroes, without mentioning your reference. You are so
right about the merging of good and evil, the light and the
dark, in one character. Now we know more fully that "We
have met the enemy and he is us!"
I know what you mean about not being proud of your Viking
forebears...but take heart, we all have bloody marauders in
our past, I would suppose! For a long time I declined to
admit my grandparents came from Germany, it's hard to be
proud of being of German roots after what happened with
Hitler. Then, to console myself, I listened to Beethoven. All
Germans weren't like those "willing executioners." I've just
got to believe that!
BTW, I love your quote by Utah Phillips...haven't listened to
him for awhile, have a recording of his on cd updated from
old lp's...one of the greats!
Dan, I don't read a lot of fiction, though I used to read
nothing but...but your recommendation of Eaters of the
Dead sounds like something I might enjoy after trying to
piece together the life and times of "Beowulf."
I just started reading Gardner's Grendl today, all I can say
right now is a very incisive and erudite "WOW!"
Best to all, Bonnie
Topic:
July: Beowulf (93 of 102), Read 26 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 11, 2001 10:37 PM
Hi Bonnie, I hope I didn't sound like I was whining there! It
took me SO long to get used to peoples names and their
posts here. It does happen though. I think I could read a
post now without a name above and know who wrote it. It
comes together eventually.
I have a terrible time saying things quickly and many times I
am posting and building up up ideas and towards
impressions. EXACTLY what I was working towards. "We
have met the enemy and he is us"
And that is why we see this "marriage" of good guy bad guy
heros and monsters in our popular culture now.
This is partly what I was piecing together with the "fame"
and the "god". Because this need for fame and reputation
and to be in all places and known by everyone....is well
when people have "forgotten" or not known that we
already ARE god.
And our fears of the enemy, we are the enemy. Another
reverse of thisSPOILER for tv show PRISONER!!! is in film
noir and spy stories he is number one.
I was about to go post under thread for Waiting For The
Barbarians, because one of the most disturbing things
about that Coetzee novel is that the "bad guys" in that
novel are us.
Candy
"If elections worked we'd outlaw them" Utah Philips
Topic:
July: Beowulf (94 of 102), Read 26 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 11, 2001 10:53 PM
p.s. Bonnie, I am a big Utah fan! Still listen to the guy on a
regular basis. But I am sure I have paraphrased him
here-eeep. Yes, you're right I like to joke about my fore
bearers, but most of us have scary ancestors out to get
more more more and no sharing. They couldn't help it they
had no IMAGINATIONS!
Candy
"If elections worked we'd outlaw them" Utah Philips
Topic:
July: Beowulf (95 of 102), Read 25 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Edd Houghton (eddh@pacbell.net)
Date:
Thursday, July 12, 2001 12:47 AM
BONNIE, CANDY
At some stage in a civilization, it becomes politically correct
to knock ones ancestors. As if they had our newly won
perspective, the big picture. And I bet our grandchildren
and great grandchildren and all the great greats to come
will mock our ways and beliefs and actions. Should we care?
I don't think so. We do the best we can and we survive long
enough to ensure there is a next generation.
Or, we make enough mistakes so that they will have
something to talk about for eons to come.
EDD
Topic:
July: Beowulf (96 of 102), Read 28 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date:
Thursday, July 12, 2001 12:56 AM
Of course Beowulf is about conflict between "civilized" v.
"uncivilized". Note that old Grendel appears to restrict his
attacks the "Great Hall" - the place where power is
displayed, society is enacted, and art/history (the
storytelling) is practiced. And the dragon is guarding the
fruits of civilization, something that has an
imposed/invented high value. After all, gold in the abstract is
just another mineral.
By the way, I worked at an excavation in Frisia (way north
of Holland) from about the time period of Beowulf or a bit
later. Yep, the same Frisians mentioned in the book. This
was a terp (early landfill, originally clay mixed with cow
merde). There was quite a bit of gold at this site, mainly
elaborate broaches. I don't remember any rings, which were
so significant to the Danes and Geats in Beowulf. The
construction was mainly wood and earth, so there wasn't
much left for us to find structurally, except for the hearths.
There was also a coin from India. Doubt there had been any
direct contact between Indians and Frisians at that time, but
imagine the journey that coin took to get there!
The ring giving in Beowulf reminded me of the elaborate
ceremonial trade of shell necklaces and armbands in the
Trobriand Islands; there are very specific rules, trading
partners, the giver and recipient get status, etc. It also
reminded me of the bowling trophies we bestow on each
other nowadays. Which probably ties right into the fame
theme.
Theresa
Concept trumps reality. Every damn time.
Topic:
July: Beowulf (97 of 102), Read 11 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 12, 2001 03:43 AM
I took ring giving to mean rings as in the half circlets and
circlets of brooches as much as a ring for the hands -- also
the arm bands which figure in the poem. Same Frisians
though -- imagine one's genealogical research leading back
to the Frisians of Beowulf's day.
Candy -- I think my brief Saskatch/Sasquatch remark was in
relation to picturing Grendel but whatever it was -- I based
it somewhat on the illustration on the Gardner book cover --
I just backed into Bigfoot from there. I thought I had replied
to your post about the Bigfoot thereafter -- I certainly don't
discount this theory of Grendel as a similar creature nor of
you sighting one.
The Neanderthal remnant idea also strikes me as relevant
indeed -- that also passed fleetingly through my brain at
one point. Why not -- even in our generation there have
been discoveries of small groups and singles of primitives
who were long thought to be completely non-existent. In
those warring and survival level times why would there not
be an us/them battle such as this epic describes?
The good and bad as opposites but part and parcel of the
same coin -- the same personage -- or the good person vs
the evil person who are the same person (the evil twin
thing). This has been around from day one. This is humanity
-- Michael and argh -- Satan's angelic name just slid into the
abyss -- Abel and Cain.
BUT the Christian authors weren't slipping this into Beowulf
if as Bonnie indicated the records say Christianity was well
established when it was written. They wrote it with the
Christian references because they thought and lived with
the Christian references in place in their lives/society. Even
though they were telling a tale from their own pre-Christian
past history, they told it from their own standpoint as a
Christian people(and keep in mind what state that would be
-- we aren't talking Bakker and Swaggert and so on here --
such a freighted word the label of Christian has become in
its lifetime).
I think I am rundown -- I lost my steam back there when
that evil angel's name slid away back there and my endpoint
went with it!
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (98 of 102), Read 8 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 12, 2001 08:03 AM
Edd, believe me, I am leaving plenty of stories and mistakes
for my kin and theirs to laugh about.
Dottie, I wasn't worried about having a big discussion on
bigfoot at all. I was just surprised and pleased to see
someone had mentioned them. Besides, this thread has so
much in it, it's all over the place!I am long used to being
teased about seeing a bigfoot, that's for sure. Of course,
and about whether I had imbibed some herbs previous to
this "sighting". heh heh.
Enjoyed hearing about your work at excavation sites
Theresa. How fun!
I have been getting off on all the information and
associations in here. This has been a wonderful group read,
one of the BEST!!!!!
group hug
Candy
"If elections worked we'd outlaw them" Utah Philips
Topic:
July: Beowulf (99 of 102), Read 6 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 12, 2001 08:13 AM
I agree that the wide ranging associations which have
developed here have added to the enjoyment of Beowulf.
THAT is from the original whiner about being left very flat by
this work -- changed MY tune in the process here, didn't I?
Which is one reason I enjoy CC so much.
BUT -- Candy -- don't forget -- there's plenty of new food for
thought coming up when we all shift our viewpoints and
start thinkin' like Grendel in a few days -- I fell immediately
in love with Gardner's book -- in contrast to my initial
reactions to old Beowulf -- and I am looking forward to this
extension of the enjoyment of both works!
Dottie -- who will miss the start -- shoot maybe two weeks
worth of Grendel -- hope it's still running when we get back
from Spain!
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (100 of 102), Read 6 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 12, 2001 08:24 AM
Dottie, I am not sure if I will be near a computer much in the
next few weeks either.
I am looking forward to reading Grendel. Is this the same
John Gardner who wrote literary criticism like The Art of
Fiction? There is also a John Gardner who wrote James Bond
books too. Are they ALL the same?
Candy
"If elections worked we'd outlaw them" Utah Philips
Topic:
July: Beowulf (101 of 102), Read 6 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 12, 2001 08:36 AM
On 7/12/01 8:24:22 AM, Candy Minx wrote:
>Dottie, I am not sure if I
>will be near a computer much
>in the next few weeks either.
>
>I am looking forward to reading Grendel.
>Is this the same John Gardner who wrote
>literary criticism like The Art of
>Fiction?
Same Gardner
There is also a John Gardner
>who wrote James Bond books too. Are they
>ALL the same?
James Bond books? Um -- don't think so. I have lost the
name that sprang to my mind as author of the Bond stories
but someone will know.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (102 of 102), Read 6 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 12, 2001 08:40 AM
Right, I know the original author is Ian Fleming, but there is
a new series of books by a John Gardner, I am sure of it...
well sort of sure
Candy
"If elections worked we'd outlaw them" Utah Philips
Topic:
July: Beowulf (103 of 119), Read 41 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Bonnie Mots (bmots@hotmail.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 12, 2001 02:54 PM
Hi, Everyone, Here's what I found out about what the author
of Grendel also wrote while I was at the library today, and
this list isn't even complete!
"John Champlin Gardner is not to be confused with the John
Edmund Gardner who writes satiric mystery novels or John L.
Gardner who was once the head of the Department of
Health, Education and Welfare."
(I would imagine John Edmund Gardner's books, if they are
in print, could be found on Amazon dot com.)
It seems our John Gardner was quite the scholar as well. I
photocopied this list and then scanned the list with text
recognition software. Voila! I would like to look into his
juvenile books, even his, dare I say it, Cliffs Notes! So many
books, so little time!
Best to all - Bonnie-in-a-rush!
John Gardner - (1933-1982)
NOVELS
The Resurrection, New American Library, 1966.
The Wreckage of Agathon, Harper, 1970.
Grendel, Knopf, 1971.
The Sunlight Dialogues, Knopf, 1972.
Jason and Medeia (novel in verse), Knopf, 1973.
Nickel Mountain: A Pastoral Novel, Knopf, 1973.
October Light, Knopf, 1976.
Freddy's Book, Knopf, 1980.
Mickelsson's Ghosts, Knopf, 1982.
JUVENILE
Dragon, Dragon and Other Timeless Tales, Knopf, 1975.
Gudgekin the Thistle Girl and Other Tales (Junior Literary
Guild selection), Knopf, 1976.
In the Suicide Mountains, Knopf, 1977.
A Child's Bestiary (light verse), Knopf, 1977.
King of the Hummingbirds, and Other Tales, Knopf, 1977.
Vlemk, the Box Painter, Lord John Press, 1979.
CRITICISM
(Editor with Lennis Dunlap) The Forms of Fiction, Random
House, 1961.
(Editor and author of introduction) The Complete Works of
the Gawain-Poet in a Modern English Version with a Critical
Introduction, University of Chicago Press, 1965.
(Editor with Nicholas Joost) Papers on the Art and Age of
Geoffrey Chaucer, Southern Illinois University Press, 1967.
(Editor and author of notes) The Gawain-Poet: Notes on
Pearl and Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, with Brief
Commentary on Purity and Patience, Cliffs Notes, 1967.
Morte D`Arthur Notes, Cliffs Notes, 1967.
Sir Gawain and the Green Knight Notes, Cliffs Notes, 1967.
(Editor and author of notes) The Alliterative Morte Arthure,
The Owl and the Nightingale and Five Other Middle English
Poems (modern English version), Southern Illinois University
Press, 1971.
The Construction of the Wakefield Cycle, Southern Illinois
University Press, 1974.
The Construction of Christian Poetry in Old English, Southern
Illinois University Press, 1975.
The Life and Times of Chaucer, Knopf, 1977.
The Poetry of Chaucer, Southern Illinois University Press,
1978.
On Moral Fiction, Basic Books, 1978.
On Becoming a Novelist, Harper, 1983.
The Art of Fiction: Notes on Craft for Young Writers, Knopf,
1984.
On Writers and Writing, foreword by Stewart O'Nan,
Addison-Wesley (Reading, MA), 1994.
Topic:
July: Beowulf (104 of 119), Read 46 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 12, 2001 03:40 PM
While reading old Roman texts, I find it utterly frustrating to
find books with no existent copies which are out of print
permanently.
Then while reading Norman F. Cantor's Civilization of the
Middle Ages, I find a comment that shows just how precious
and unique Beowulf is:
The sources for the early history of the Germans are
meager...The second group of sources consists of the Germanic
folk poetry. Unfortunately, of this group only the Anglo-Saxon
poem Beowulf has come down to us in a form close enough to
the original version to be usable as a historical source. The
great German cycle of the Nibelungenlied, which inspired the
libretti for Wagner's operas, has come down to use only in a
13th-century version heavily overlaid by ideological concerns of
that era. Beowulf, on the other hand, was written down by a
cleric in the late 8th-century; the Christian overlay is
superficial, and the poem graphically reveals the ideals and
mores of the upper strata of Germanic society. The social
picture it presents can be confirmed by comparing the Germanic
way of life it depicts with the mores of Scandinavian society
presented in the Icelandic sagas and eddas. Although these
sagas and eddas depict Scandinavian society in the High Middle
Ages, they reveal a society at a similar stage of development.
This stage can also be found in the Homeric poetry, which
similarly is a product of what the English scholar H. Chadwick
called the "heroic age."
Just imagine if that fire at Cotton's archive had been more
thorough. Imagine if the fire did destroy some works before
their shining moment...
I also came across an interesting comment on the "Christian
overlay" (I already forgot the source, though): Beowulf only
uses Old Testament allusions--there's nothing taken from
the New Testament. Maybe the cleric did not have an
updated version.
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (105 of 119), Read 42 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 12, 2001 04:35 PM
Bonnie,
Thanks for the information on John Gardner, author of
Grendel. He certainly has excellent credentials. My son
recently read Beowulf and Grendel paired in his college
literature class, and I am looking forward to reading the
modern take on the legend.
Look for the discussion of Grendel to begin around July 15
under the Reading List Books topic. This is where the
Constant Reader discussions of the books on its monthly
reading list take place. (This may be very confusing for a
newcomer, but Classics Corner and Constant Reader were
originally two separate groups and we have maintained two
separate reading lists.)
Dan, that's an interesting point. So few of the original
sources are left to us from many periods of history. I
sometimes wonder how this lack has distorted our
perception of earlier periods in history.
The author you quoted compares the "heroic age" of
Beowulf to that of Homer. So, history does repeat. :)
Topic:
July: Beowulf (106 of 119), Read 46 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Bonnie Mots (bmots@hotmail.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 12, 2001 04:39 PM
Thanks Dan for intersting comments, and thanks Ann in
alerting me to where the Grendel discussion will take place. I
will be most interested too in what your son reveals to you
about his findings.
Scholars have delved deeply into all matters concerning
Beowulf, and will continue to do so, ad infinitum, I would
suppose. And who knows what some future diggers will
unearth, or what natural disaster will disturb the earth to
reveal more concrete artifacts? But I sure like, and agree,
with what this scholar wrote:
Beowulf -- A Personal Elegy by Frederick R. Rebsamen
The question of whether Beowulf is a Christian or a pagan
poem will be forever clouded by the fact that the best
qualities of both these traditions overlap in such a way that
no clash is felt, and it must ultimately be decided by
reference to the whole, its aggregate effect upon the
emotions. But this question, as well as others, should first
be directed at that feature of the poem which is the most
fascinating thing about it: Beowulf himself.
It seems clear to me that the poet has here created for his
purpose a character who would not have been recognized in
the poet's day as any particular figure from history or legend
or folklore or mythology-though this assumption must
ultimately be accepted on faith. Beowulf is neither human
nor superhuman, Christian nor pagan, English nor Geatish,
heroic nor humble, but something of all of these and much
more besides. To the standard Germanic heroic attributes,
all of which Beowulf has, the poet has added a measure of
compassion and understanding and meditative restraint
which, although these same qualities were certainly to be
found to one degree or another in some real-life Germanic
heroes, has made of Beowulf as a literary character
something approaching Chaucer's knight. Approaching, I
say, for the differences are of course enormous and the
cultures eight hundred years apart --yet Beowulf, to a
reflective reader familiar with both cultures, really does come
across as, in his own day and way, "a verray parfit gentil
knyght." The big difference here is that we expect Chaucer's
knight to be all these things; with Beowulf, it is the
unexpected.
The puzzling things about Beowulf's life --his origin, the fact
that he apparently never married and/or produced any
children, his return alone from the battle that took the life of
his lord, his apparent inactivity during the later Geat-Swede
conflicts -- these, together with the ambiguous qualities
mentioned above, cease to be bothersome when one
accepts the idea that, after all, his creator was a major poet
trying something big and new, involving the best standards
of two different ways of life, and that his concentration upon
theme and mood has made of Beowulf, in places, a puzzling
character. If the reader further accepts, as I do, the idea
that the poet was here presenting his personal elegy for the
demise of an old and in many ways admirable tradition at
the moment when it was giving into and merging its best
qualities with a new one, then Beowulf as a character grows
less and less puzzling and begins to make very good sense
indeed.
From Beowulf Is My Name, by Frederick R. Rebsamen,
Copyright 1971 by Rinehart Press, pp. ix-x.
Topic:
July: Beowulf (107 of 119), Read 40 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 12, 2001 09:03 PM
Bonnie,
Most interesting. So, I wonder if we could say that Beowulf
is a kind of archetype. He didn't seem too real to me until his
final battle with the dragon when he knew he was dying. Up
to that point, he seemed very vague. I also wondered about
the lack of spouse or children. The author you quoted gives
a good explanation of why he is somewhat undeveloped as
an individual.
Ann
Topic:
July: Beowulf (108 of 119), Read 34 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Edd Houghton (eddh@pacbell.net)
Date:
Thursday, July 12, 2001 09:56 PM
CANDY
So that you won't stay awake worrying; yes. There are
James Bond novels written by John Gardner. Thanks to Bon's
intrepid research, we now know that this particular Gardner
had a middle name, Edmund. This is also a relief to me,
because I didn't know whether to add the GRENDEL
Gardner to the JAMES BOND Gardner's list. Now I can sleep.
Here's a list that appears in one of the JAMES BOND
Gardner's books; DEATH IS FOREVER.
THE MAN FROM BARBAROSSA
BROKEN CLAW
WIN, LOSE OR DIE
SCORPIUS
NO DEALS, MR BOND
LICENCE TO KILL
NOBODY LIVES FOREVER
ROLE OF HONOR
ICEBREAKER
FOR SPECIAL SERVICES
LICENSE RENEWED.
EDD
"I can guess your problem, Mark. It's hard to have a
man-to-man talk with a machine."
"The machine is not to blame," observed the Dominican, irony
in his voice. "It says what was put into it."
FIASCO by Stanislaw Lem.
Topic:
July: Beowulf (109 of 119), Read 33 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Bonnie Mots (bmots@hotmail.com)
Date:
Friday, July 13, 2001 12:48 AM
Ann wrote:
Bonnie, Most interesting. So, I wonder if we could say that
Beowulf is a kind of archetype. He didn't seem too real to me
until his final battle with the dragon when he knew he was
dying. Up to that point, he seemed very vague. I also wondered
about the lack of spouse or children. The author you quoted
gives a good explanation of why he is
somewhat undeveloped as an individual.
Absolutely, Ann! In the poem, Beowulf's life spans from birth
to death, and it has most of the classical components of
"archetypes" -- the strange birth (or missing details of his
birth), some "initiation" elements, perhaps even his
encounter with the "sinister female" in the character of
Grendel's mother. It certainly has "the Journey" and he
encounters monsters, etc. It fits the pattern, much like in
Homer's Odyssey with Odysseus as archetypal hero. And so
too does the next great English poem fit the archetypal
pattern, "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight" whose author is
also unknown.
It all makes more sense to me viewed this way.
Bonnie
Topic:
July: Beowulf (110 of 119), Read 27 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Edd Houghton (eddh@pacbell.net)
Date:
Friday, July 13, 2001 01:07 AM
BONNIE
I had the idea that SIR GAWAIN AND THE GREEN KNIGHT
was more the story of the meeting between two cultures.
The old culture was represented by the Green Knight; the
world of growing matter, agriculture as god. The world a
garden, sort of. The Green Knight can cut off his head and
survive. It grows again.
Sir Gawain doesn't have this attribute. He is part of the new
culture. And they can't coexist it seems. Wish I could
remember how he gets out of it. He must. But he does
represent a new type of being; the hunter, gatherer,
warrior. Does the old culture die? Or go underground? Are
there any around today? Are they CR's?
Sort of like the way Marion Zimmer Bradley presents it in
THE MISTS OF AVALON.
At least that's my thinking today. No guarantees for
tomorrow.
EDD
Topic:
July: Beowulf (111 of 119), Read 22 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date:
Friday, July 13, 2001 01:21 AM
Hmmm. Edd, that flips Candy's cosmology, doesn't it?
Maybe Beowulf is a Christ-figure? No marriage, no kids.
Disciples (not 12 though, weren't there 15 in that boat?)
Dies battling the dragon to save humanity. Betrayed by his
friends at the end. And so forth.
Theresa
Concept trumps reality. Every damn time.
Topic:
July: Beowulf (112 of 119), Read 22 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Bonnie Mots (bmots@hotmail.com)
Date:
Friday, July 13, 2001 01:31 AM
EDD, it's been awhile since I read SIR GAWAIN, but you are
right about it being a meeting of the the pagan and the
"new culture." The Green Knight does have the ability to
regrow his head...I recall he carries it off with him when he
presents the challenge at that sumptuous feast...Green
Knight is The Green Man, vegetation, return of spring, etc.
You can see him throughout England even today on
billboards and in advertising signs, et al.
But I am not so sure the cultures didn't co-exist for
awhile...seems to me they almost had to...in the system of
belief of a people the pagan elements didn't disappear
overnight. I think of our celebration of Christmas which has
its roots in paganism, the celebration of winter solstice.
Heck, the way we celebrate Christmas today seems to
out-pagan the pagans! And I bet there are pagans right
here among us!
I am making too light of your point, I am sure. I'll have to dip
into Sir Gawain a bit again.
I always mean to read The Mists of Avalon...sounds so
intriguing.
Topic:
July: Beowulf (113 of 119), Read 22 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Bonnie Mots (bmots@hotmail.com)
Date:
Friday, July 13, 2001 01:37 AM
Teresa, I am glad you said that, about Beowulf as Christ
figure...I was thinking that too! It does not seem very
far-fetched...thinking of the Green Knight regrowing his head
is a "resurrection" theme too, of sorts. I think all the
elements merged to create our various systems of belief
today with embellishments and embroidery on old themes.
Best, Bonnie-Probably-Pagan
Topic:
July: Beowulf (114 of 119), Read 11 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Friday, July 13, 2001 02:56 AM
Bonnie --if you move to Mists of Avalon -- I would
recommend examining all of Bradley's Arthur works and
making a choice about reading them in the order she wrote
them or to read Mists and then possibly dabble with the
others. My own opinion is that Mists of Avalon is the
strongest and yet having read them all I know there is some
part of me which would say read them in the order written --
or the order of the story presented in the volumes. Each
stands alone but there is some overlap.
Theresa -- I am SO glad you said this about Beowulf and
Christ -- there are number differences -- he set out with 14
companions so the total was 15 -- but immediately one of
those was eaten by Grendel -- then later the number when
they went after the dragon was a total of 12 or was it 13 --
anyway -- I also got some echoes of Christ and the disciples
in those areas but also minor ones elsewhere in the Beowulf
tale.
I am reveling in all these sources and quotes and the info
flowing into this discussion. Thanks, Dan and Bonnie and all.
Dottie -- who is amazed that three well known Bond titles
are the Gardner Bonds rather than the Fleming ones -- EDD
thanks
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (115 of 119), Read 10 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
David Moody (davidmoody@prodigy.net)
Date:
Friday, July 13, 2001 06:22 AM
Theresa: Thanks for the Beowulf/Christ comparison. The
possibility had struck me as well, but I dismissed it thinking
there wasn't any connection at all; Beowulf is hardly meek
and gentle!
It occurs to me, especially having finished Grendel, that
these works contain large culture clashes; not just of
ethnic/political groups, but Christianity vs. "Paganism". Or is
Grendel just the epitome of evil, a Satanic type. (Remember
how Screwtape "ate" his victims?)
David
Topic:
July: Beowulf (116 of 119), Read 9 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, July 13, 2001 08:08 AM
Wow. This thread is intriguing.
I saw Grendel more as a representative of Evil - those that
have separated from God's grace. However, I like the culture
clash theory. Heaney mentions this in his introduction, but
more in the form of one culture merging into another, rather
than a clash. I think he sees it as a wavering between the
old ways and the new. Ok, it's a clash.
I'm wondering, though, if a monk would have recorded the
story with culture clash in mind. It seems more likely he was
going for the simpler Good/Evil battle.
Oh geez. Here I am in the middle of an ancient Rome kick, as
a result of I, Claudius, and what happens to me? I get on a
Middle Ages kick. I've read Mists of Avalon which ranks in my
top ten books, but haven't delved into Bradley's Arthur
series. I also want to read Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.
Who else wants to read it with me?
K
Topic:
July: Beowulf (117 of 119), Read 10 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@starband.net)
Date:
Friday, July 13, 2001 08:11 AM
Dottie, I think you may be getting Marion Zimmer Bradley
mixed up with Mary Stewart. She wrote the "Darkover"
fantasy series. Bradley did write two other Arthur books, but
I think they were written after Mists. Mary Stewart wrote
The Crystal Cave, The Hollow Hills, and The Last Enchantment
known as the Merlin Trilogy. Then she wrote a fourth one
about Mordred that finishes it up. I know all this because at
one point, I was on a real Arthurian kick.
Sherry
Topic:
July: Beowulf (118 of 119), Read 5 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Friday, July 13, 2001 09:14 AM
Nope -- -- gggg -- the other two Bradley books on Arthur
were actually written before Mists or are at least SET before
it -- I was simply suggesting that Bradley's works can be
read as they appeared or read in the order written or the
order of setting -- wish I could recall whether it was only the
settings which shifted - I think not -- I think at least one of
these was earlier writing.
And like you, I devoured all of Mary Stewart's Arthur books
and my bookie daughter followed suit reading them all plus
Mists plus another couple Arthur books the summer between
6th and 7th grades. There is also one much later -- The
Princess and the Pilgrim -- oooh that title doesn't feel right --
by Stewart which is fair reading.
I think I said something back there about Beowulf and
Grendel perhaps being like Michael and Lucifer -- good/evil --
I like the comparison to Screwtape, too.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (119 of 119), Read 5 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Lynn Isvik (washualum@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, July 13, 2001 09:32 AM
It's The Prince and the Pilgrim, Dottie. You were close!
Lynn
Topic:
July: Beowulf (120 of 121), Read 6 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Friday, July 13, 2001 10:33 AM
Thanks, Lynn!
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (121 of 121), Read 8 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Friday, July 13, 2001 10:55 AM
WOW, this has been great reading here. I am pumped UP!!!
Thanks for the Gardner breakdowns everyone. I am a big
fan of the literary criticism Garnder of Grendel wrote.
Theresa, you give me too much credit! "Candy's
cosmology". I am flattered. But it's not stuff I made up
Theresa, they conceal all that information in books. I am an
arrogant person, but not deluded. heh heh. I could never
make up history!
I am a pagan, gee, am I the only one around here? I know
very few Chrisians in my personal group of friends . Actually,
about six of my friends are "recovering catholics". But the
rest, like me, weren't raised Christian. I think one of my
grandmothers tried to get me to be christian, but it just
didn't "take". heh heh. I was raised to see god and spirit
and soul in everything and all around us.But I enjoy a lot of
biblical anecdotes and images here and there, and I like
how christians are always "trying to connect with god and
pray". I find their aspirations inspiring. So yes, I am a
pagan, but I'm in good company. If you think about it, Jesus
was a pagan too!!!
I also think that paganism never really left art or our stories
or our archetypes. Christianity tried to get rid of images and
ideas that were "pagan" but never succeeded.
Like Bonnie said, our customs associated with "Christmas"
or "Easter" are almost universally pagan traditions and
customs.
I think I am going to dig out The Green Knight. this whole
thread has me so excited!!!I went through a HUGE King
Arthur phase one time too. I loved Steinbecks book on
Arthur as well as Mary Stweart. For one week in the 80's I
never left the world Stewart created. Barely ate or made
phone calls. Just got my kid to school and then back to her
world!!ahhh such fun!
love and peace
Candy
"If elections worked we'd outlaw them" Utah Philips
Topic:
July: Beowulf (122 of 131), Read 46 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@starband.net)
Date:
Friday, July 13, 2001 11:30 AM
Sorry, Dottie. I just never think of the Bradley books as a
series, but I guess you didn't say that. The Stewart books
are definitely a series and should be read in order. I loved
those books.
Sherry
Topic:
July: Beowulf (123 of 131), Read 48 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Friday, July 13, 2001 11:39 AM
Sherry -- I think you are right that Bradley's books aren't
really a series but the topics interweave and my vague
recollection as I say is that they were sort of "out of order"
somehow. Mary Stewart was one of my all time favorite
authors even BEFORE I hit the Merlin series and couldn't
wait for the next one hardly when they started.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (124 of 131), Read 47 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, July 13, 2001 02:13 PM
I say we start a Green Knight thread and those who want to
foray in that direction can do so--no problem for me at all.
I've read the Stewart books as well and enjoyed them
immensely, but I've always preferred Chretien de Troyes
and Geoffrey of Monmouth--the source, sort of speak.
I don't know about this Beowulf/Christ connection. I don't
see anything in it, fudging numbers aside.
Norman F. Cantor notes that the Germanic tribes were
converted to Christianity by the Arian Christians, a sect that
arose out of Eastern Christianity rather than Western.
According to Cantor:
Arianism, named after its originator Arius, an Alexandrian
priest, insisted on a strong definition of the distinction between
God and Christ (God the Father and God the Son). This view
reflected the resurgence of Greco-Roman polythesistic concepts
within Christianity; Arius, like the pagan Greek thinkers, tried
to make distinctions and levels in the god-head.
And later, Theodosius I tried to eradicate Arianism by
imperial condemnation in 383, roughly 500 years before the
writing of Beowulf. To quote Cantor:
Furthermore, the destruction of Arianism came too late to
prevent the spread of the Arian heresy to the Germanic
peoples. It was the Arian, rather than the Catholic, church that
sent missionaries beyond the Danube and Rhine, with the
result that several Germanic kings of the following century
turned out to be favorers of Arianism.
I find it interesting that a paganistic view of Christianity
would be a German staple for a while; also, the writer of
Beowulf would then have been better able to weave
together the Germanic pagan threads with his view of
Christianity with its remnants of Arianism.
The problem with all this is that it falls apart when we
consider why, oh why, did the cleric not mention a son of
God. Was it because Jesus never really was a model of
vengeance and hording?
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (125 of 131), Read 48 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ernest Belden (drernest@pacbell.net)
Date:
Friday, July 13, 2001 04:16 PM
Hi,
Just returned home a few days ago after a month in Europe,
mainly France and Switzerland. Since I got back I got a hold
of Beowulf and got started on it. I do remember reading
some sections while in high school. It seems to be most
interesting and am anxious to get into it.
While this does not exactly belong into this column I like to
mention that we took I Claudius along as my wife Pat
wanted to read it. I went over the last 60 pages or so once
more. So Pat and I had a chance to discuss the book and I
got a few new ideas.
No we did not go to Rome but I gathered that Barb did and
wonder what her impressions of Rome are now after having
read Graves.
Of course I was unable to read all the postings but will do
so a bit at a time. We are still sort of exhausted from
driving, sight seeing, going up and down the high
mountains (mostly by cable cars). So we now have a
problem adjusting to good old Napa, CA.
Ernie
Topic:
July: Beowulf (126 of 131), Read 47 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, July 13, 2001 05:10 PM
Ernie-
Good to have you back. I'd love to read your comments on I,
Claudius. If you go to the "Conferences" side, the "July
Discussion: I, Claudius," is still listed.
K
Topic:
July: Beowulf (127 of 131), Read 49 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Friday, July 13, 2001 07:37 PM
Welcome back, Ernie. I bet those mountains were fabulous.
Ann
Topic:
July: Beowulf (128 of 131), Read 47 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Friday, July 13, 2001 07:55 PM
Oh, Ernie! How I envy you! Some people, I think, are ocean
lovers and others are mountain lovers. I am definitely a
mountain lover and would give anything to see the Alps!
Welcome home!
Beej
Topic:
July: Beowulf (129 of 131), Read 32 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Edd Houghton (eddh@pacbell.net)
Date:
Saturday, July 14, 2001 02:28 AM
I think the story of BEOWULF was copied in the 10th
century, but most likely an old story at that time. Probably
we should be grateful to the monk who wrote the story
down, otherwise we would most likely be ignorant of its
existence. As we are of countless other stories. My feeling is
that the monk added the Biblical references. Old Testament
with the harsher God in fact.
Without these references, he would not have been able to
get it past his bosses; most likely. What else did he leave
out?
Grendel seems like one of the ogres of our mythology. I
think they were the cannibal practitioners in a long ago
past. And this practice is considered tabu in most if not all
religions. Under this hypothesis, Beowulf has been called in
to rid Hrothgar of this evil. Maybe the reason Grendel is
invisible, is because he is one of the clan. Therefore, you
bring in an outsider to track him down without prejudice.
Not too far fetched I hope. And Grendel's mommy? She
should have stuck to vegetables.
And made her kid eat them also.
Of course it takes a lot of effort to work out these analogies
so that everything is consistent. For that, Crichton's is
excellent.
EDD
" ... I put my clothes on the chair near the table and hit
the mattress with a roll. I was out before a vampire bat
could blink a blind eye.
NEVER CROSS A VAMPIRE by Stuart Kaminsky
Topic:
July: Beowulf (130 of 131), Read 31 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 14, 2001 06:40 AM
Edd, I am glad you bring up the cannibalism in Beowulf. Of
course I was trying to find a passage on it but couldn't,
rats!
Yes, it's true that many cultures and religions ban
cannibalism, but it's also true that when cannibalism IS
practiced it is usually within a celebration(Cele-isn't that the
goddess of agriculture?)and within a religious ritual or
ceremony. and often it is practiced as a latch ditch attempt
for food, when there are food shortages or rations.
And I suppose really all the fighting in Beowulf or in real life
comes down to resources. But I think cannibalism is other
"things" too to us in our mythologies.
If there is a terrible rumour that Grendel is from a bad tribe,
the children of Cain, it implies a "bloodline" or a cultural
taboo about murder and ones family. and I think Beowulfs
people are ultimately afraid of "mating" with that group. Of
continuing the tribe of Grendal, whether it's "true" that they
were Cains kin or not. I think the Cains kin thing is lie the
worst insult the poet could find ha ha. It's the worst insult
because Cain is a murderer. Which is strange seeing as
Beowulf is a murderer too. Did some one say that Beowulf is
related to bear?
Because in many ways he is part the energy of bear but
also he is his peoples "dancing bear" too.
I think the idea of cannibalism is particularily a concept of
sex. And of one culture or group of people consuming the
other. and the image of having one body inside another is
also of being trapped or pregnant. "confinement" is a word
we use for both conditions.
boy I am getting hungry, better go get brakfast!
Candy-who is very inspired by this discussion.
"If elections worked we'd outlaw them" Utah Philips
Topic:
July: Beowulf (131 of 131), Read 29 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 14, 2001 09:19 AM
Edd: I think you're on to something there, with Beowulf as
"outsider" and hence better able to discern the nature of
the menace at Heorot. It reminds me of the role of Oedipus
in Oedipus at Colonus where he was an outsider much like
Grendel but no one in the play can think of what to do with
him.
While scholars are fairly certain when the existent document
was copied, there is considerable debate as to when it was
exactly transferred from oral to print. To quote the Norton
Anthology of English Literature:
Beowulf, the oldest of the great long poems written in English,
may have been composed more than twelve hundred years
ago, in the first half of the eighth century, though some
scholars would place it as late as the tenth century. Its author
may have been a native of what was then West Mercia, the
West Midlands of England today, though the late tenth-century
manuscript, which alone preserves the poem, originated in the
south in the kingdom of the West Saxons.
Come to think of it--in the backwash of time, what's two or
three hundred years?
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (132 of 137), Read 31 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Robert Armstrong (rla@nac.net)
Date:
Friday, July 20, 2001 04:08 PM
Just to echo other comments, I was struck by the primacy of
the tale, how basic the story is to our many legends and
traditions. The fire-breathing dragon fighting a
shield-bearing hero has to be about as classic a duo as
possible. And the glorification of the courageous, strong
male who risks his life and succeeds in protecting the
masses is a staple Hollywood action formula. Then, of
course, saving everyone is just the tip of the iceberg.
Beowulf's greatness is enormously amplified by his ability to
maintain peace for fifty years as a ruler who behaves fairly
and kindly to his people all the while keeping invaders at
bay due to his fierce reputation. And then if that's not
enough, when crisis strikes again he's the one to meet the
challenge, even as an old man. And then he saves the day
for the third time AND dies in combat. What a dude! All the
masculine virtues are covered: strength, courage,
leadership, the buck stops here, Mighty Mouse to save the
day, and the swordblade balancing act between boast and
modesty.
What makes it a classic to me is the endless ways in which
Beowulf's story is being retold today. It's like we have his
prototype imprinted in our consciousness and the
superhero lives. The downside of this is: what leader can
live up to it? I think this kind of idealization is the source of
our savagery towards a leader who exhibits any weakness.
I'm glad to discover that BEOWULF is actually relevant. This
legend lives.
Robt
Topic:
July: Beowulf (133 of 137), Read 31 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dean Denis (dddenis@iname.com)
Date:
Friday, July 20, 2001 05:49 PM
Candy, "celebration" comes from the Latin adjective
"celeber, celebris" which means, "where a multitude comes
together" and other related meanings. It also gives us the
word "celebrity."
The Roman goddess of agriculture was Ceres from which
we get the word "cereal." To the Greeks she was Demeter.
Topic:
July: Beowulf (134 of 137), Read 29 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, July 20, 2001 07:05 PM
Thanks for the review, Robert. I would only note that
Unferth tried to find a weakness in this Geat hero who
arrived to save the day--only Beowulf was just too damn
good at boasting and bashing to be affected by a menial
brother-killer.
Nowadays, perhaps the media at large serves the same
function as Unferth, struggling to reveal the flaws in one's
boast and the chink in one's armor.
And let's recall the poet's litany of the reasons for Beowulf's
fame:
Thus Beowulf bore himself with valour;
he was formidable in battle yet behaved with honour
and took no advantage; never cut down
a comrade who was drunk, kept his temper
and, warrior that he was, watched and controlled
his God-sent strength and his outstanding
natural powers.
Just think if O.J. had read Beowulf in his youth and bore
himself with as much discipline and valour...
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (135 of 137), Read 31 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Robert Armstrong (rla@nac.net)
Date:
Friday, July 20, 2001 09:09 PM
Dan,
Yes, I was thinking of Unferth's challenge to Beowulf when
making the comment about B's balance between boast and
modesty. Beowulf seemed to easily put Unferth in his place,
being appropriately boastful when challenged, but able to
keep his cool the rest of the time, never resorting to
bullying behavior. The mark of a secure man. Cool is
another modern day masculine virtue. It seemed like
Beowulf allowed his actions to speak for themselves.
Instead of believing he was better than everyone else (the
foundation of tyranny) he remained of service to his people,
vigilant and ready to the end. I am in agreement with
Beowulf's greatness.
Robt
Topic:
July: Beowulf (136 of 137), Read 20 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 21, 2001 01:24 PM
Now that's an interesting statement, Robert: "Beowulf was
cool." I'm sure you write this with sincerity and not as a
synonym for "Beowulf was awesome the way he tore that
arm off the monster, Dude!"
In The Mind's Sky, Timothy Ferris analyzes the source of that
"cool expression," and his passage echoes some of
Robert's observations from the previous post:
So it just may be that the cool, almost expressionless face of
an athlete like Joe Montana is the outward badge of a motor
cortex so skilled at managing the hands and feet that it has
depleted the cortical territory normally employed to control
facial muscles. We respond to the mask precisely because we
have learned to associate it with competence in action. That's
why macho movie stars like Clint Eastwood and Arnold
Schwarzenegger underact like crazy. The critics may complain
that their unvarying facial expressions get tiresome after a
while, but Eastwood and Schwarzenegger know what they are
doing: They are playing men whose intelligence lies in deeds,
not talk, and whose motor cortex, consequently, has borrowed
tissue from mere expression in order to devote it to
large-muscle functions like running, jumping, and firing
endless clips of ammunition from automatic weapons.
I would only add battling monster mothers at the bottom of
meres as well.
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
July: Beowulf (137 of 137), Read 11 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Robert Armstrong (rla@nac.net)
Date:
Saturday, July 21, 2001 08:52 PM
Dan,
Yes, I mean cool in the sense that Timothy Ferris is using it:
that action speaks louder than words. In the LETHAL
WEAPON series Mel Gibson is cool and his comic sidekick,
Joe Pesci, acts as his antithesis by being all bluster and
bull$#!+. So, Beowulf was a cool dude indeed and he's got
an active heritage.
Robt
Topic:
July: Beowulf (138 of 139), Read 24 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ernest Belden (drernest@pacbell.net)
Date:
Friday, July 27, 2001 09:15 PM
Beowulf is puzzling and I walked around for a week trying
to make sense of it. It does contain very important aspects
of life during this particular period of time.
Could it be that it is related to the Niebelungen Lied with
Siegfried, etc. There are also dragons there and if I
remember correctly Siegfriend took a bath in dragon blood
to make his invincible except for his heels where someone
held him.
Well the basic theme is of course human competition,
survival of the fittest, desire for power, etc. But I had
another idea that I want to try out on you. Could the killers
have been Neanderthal man who's existence coincided with
modern man?
I am in the middle of Grendel and truly like it. First of all I
wonder how the author came up with that stuff. He is very
skillful in integrating modern thought and ideas into
whatever the dragon had to say. It is really a very puzzling
work that required the skill to be both contemporary and
ancient.
More later,
Ernie
Topic:
July: Beowulf (139 of 139), Read 24 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dean Denis (dddenis@iname.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 28, 2001 11:03 AM
I think that Grendel symbolises war. Grendel is a
descendant of Cain, a humanity deformed by hatred and
envy. The established wealthy society is prone to assaults
by envious surrounding tribes. The stories of revenge and
betrayal are parallel manifestations of Grendel as both
deplete the benches of the mead hall.
Unferth cannot kill Grendel because he is a part of Grendel.
Out of envy, he challenges Beowulf. He mocks Beowulf for
indulging in a childish swimming contest rather than getting
on with the manly business of killing for a glory. Unferth,
after all, seems to hold a privileged place in the mead hall,
at the foot of the king.
Beowulf admits that he was having fun with a friend but
that he didn't win because he was distracted by monsters
which he dispatched to make the world safe for sailors.
Beowulf put aside personal glory for the greater good.
An important turning point in the story occurs when Unferth
lends Beowulf his sword.
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